Tales From the Crib: So....

Tuesday, January 08, 2008

So....

Are we going to talk about it?

I'm pretty sure the tales girls here are about 50/50 Reps vs. Dems. And at least two of us have switched parties recently...

I am still researching which candidate I am going to support... just picked up Audacity of Hope to read, and I have been following the caucuses and primaries very closely. I have taken the quiz that marion sent me where you answer issues-based questions, and the candidate that you most closely match pops up. The candidates that I matched up with were not the ones that I think I want to vote for, so that was a bit confusing.

My parental figures and grandparental figures are all for Romney. I have encountered a lot of Mormon peops that are also on the Romney bandwagon. Has anyone read blink? (there is an anecdote about a president who got voted into office because he was tall, dark and handsome). Romney does seem quite dapper and handsome and white and male and American....and he does make good jokes....but I am not sure he is my guy. I suspect some Mormon folk are jumping on his bandwagon for a large part because he is a Mormon. I don't think that is the best reason to vote for someone.

So, what is the best reason to vote for someone? I would like to say that issues are important...but sometimes the issues get muddled through the debates and the pc-ness and the spin. Should gender matter? How about race? Religion? The very strong nonconformist in me LOVES the fact that a woman and a black man are in the running to be the President. Is speech-giving the main attraction? Obama makes me a little teary I have to say... "YES WE CAN!" Should we judged them based on their stylist? Hillary is doing really good right now with her 61-year-old self and her hair and makeup, and the New Mexico Gov needs a new hair-do....

Lately I have enjoyed John McCain, especially in this climate of war....but he is old and funny-looking and in New Hampshire he lost all charisma for me as he read his speech sentence for sentence.

Should we judge the candidates based on the music that they play at their rally's and speeches? Should we judge them on what color tie they are wearing?

And then there is the question that always haunts me....HOW should I vote? Should I use my vote to represent who I am? A young white Christian mother of a specific economic situation who enjoys choice but realistically will never have an abortion married to a tall white man who works for an American car company? Do I look all around me at the demographic of my neighborhood and at the people who I pass on the streets, work with, send my daughter to school with and vote based on what is best for ALL of us as a community? Voting from those two perspectives are vastly different to me.

So....are we gonna talk about it?

45 Comments:

I was raised to vote for hte lesser of two evils to help keep the greater of the two evils out. And if you vote for any of the third parties, you're wasting your vote and hurting the lesser of two evils. This was really getting me down because I don't like the "big guys" running. But as I've started to really look at some of these others, Ron Paul and John McCain (yes I'm more conservative) I've started to see more of what I believe. I've just started the research process, primaries aren't until may here, so I don't know too much of what I'm talking about. But I'd like to be able to trust the person I'm voting for and know he's not a flip flopper. I'd also like to feel motivated to do good with my vote, not like I just need to vote to keep the greater of the two evils out of office. I'm never motivated by dread or force like that. But I'm starting to get that feeling of I want to VOTE for someone I believe in. And yes it is just one vote. But one day that vote will count. And I'd really like to be able to voice my concerns with whatever the outcome of the elections is and well I can't complain, express if I've not helped by voting.
posted by Angela S at 1/08/2008 08:35:00 PM
I might get flak for this, but I'm for Romney. His religion has very little to do with it, too. He's the only R candidate that has a great business background and a trail of success behind him, both politically, economically (mostly having to do with his businesses), and ethically (family morals, saving the Olympics).

As much as I want "CHANGE" (the big word all the candidates are using now) in Washington, I cannot bring myself to vote Democrat. I hate government intervention in every aspect of our lives. I do like Obama as a person, but that's not enough to like him as a President.

And finally, it doesn't really matter what I think, though. I know that sounds so anti-American, but what can I do to get Romney nominated? From my position, I can only vote in the Primary (which I'm very excited to do). After that, there's not much else I can do. So, I'm anxious to see who it will be. One thing's for sure, this is an exciting election year already!
posted by Cheryl at 1/08/2008 09:31:00 PM
Just for fun:
So far my hubby and I feel that if Obama goes up against Huckabee (who could honestly vote for someone with that silly name?President HUCK-A-BEE-it sounds too dorky) it will end in Obama. Obama's got some seriously good charm going on. If it were Hillary and Romney duking it out, Romney would win, he's got more going on there for sure. I too have a decent slice of me that relishes the fact that there is both a woman and a black person in the running. But deep down, I think Romney freakin' rocks. But, I will also honestly say that I don't think there are enough people in this country to vote someone of his caliber in. He's too perfect for most people to handle. I believe he is what he says he is, but I think a lot of people second guess it and assume he's a liar or a fake. They subconciously want someone with more flaws. So what will we end up with? In a slightly pessimistic attitude, I just hope it's not someone who allows the country to get really messed up.
posted by Rachel H at 1/08/2008 10:24:00 PM
Not that I don't like Romney for his values and morals, but I just DO NOT see it as a reality that America will vote for a "mormon" for president. Not going to happen. Mormons are a small percentage of America and I think even if everybody LDS decided to vote for him (which they won't, because I know many strong Democrat LDS members), he wouldn't have a great chance. Also, I don't solely vote for someone based on their religion. I don't vote solely for someone based on the fact that they are R or D. I vote for them based on their individual strengths, experience, and the issues at hand. It should be a VERY interesting election year and I look forward to watching more debates and researching the facts to see who will win my vote.
posted by Anonymous at 1/09/2008 04:32:00 AM
cheryl, talk to me more about Romney being a great business man and that having to do with being a good leader of our country. When I think of a great business man I think of two different things: someone changing the structure of organizations to make them more efficient, and and entrepreneur or idea-guy who made his business grow because he was so creative.

I guess you can be both. What is Romney?

If he is the first one, then that doesn't do much for me b/c the organization of our government is set in stone, it can't change. BUT if he has been a really amazing IDEA GUY in his career, I think that would be great for our government (though sometimes I get frustrated b/c it seems like there are SO many obstacles in the way our government is structured, to implement any ideas...!)...I don't know the specifics of his business background, do you? care to share?

rachel h, my dh and I have been playing a bit of who would you rather too? Conversations that start with...."ok if it ends up being Barack vs. Romney who wins? If it ends up being Huckabee vs. Hillary...who wins?" It's kind of a fun way to make a snap judgment or follow a gut feeling about a candidate.
posted by Kage at 1/09/2008 04:56:00 AM
Kage,

This is Cheryl's DH...

I'm a bit of a lurker here, but let me throw in my $0.02

My father has been involved with Mitt's campaign for almost two years now. In fact, he was in NH yesterday. I love my dad, but as TFTCarrie and Cheryl might say... this could be enough to make me NOT vote for Mitt. ;) But, what is has done for me is to make me pay VERY close attention to Mitt for the last two years.

As a result, I have watched all but one or two of the Rep debates this year. I have been reading web articles on Romney DAILY for the last year. I really don't follow most of the pro-romney blogs, but just news-google "Romney" every day and ready the top few articles, so I feel like I've been getting a fairly well-rounded media perspective on him.

As a result of this, I've become very pro-Romney. I've had Cheryl watch most of the debates, and I think that is what has led her to be very pro-Romney as well, as I think she was initially inclined to not be, due to my father's support. :)

If you aren't really familiar with him, and just know him as "a Mormon running for President"... then first go to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitt_romney) I just skimmed this over, and I think it gives a pretty good overview of his background. There appears to be a pretty good list of supporting articles that you can dig into to support most of it. AS with any Wikipedia article, if there's something that seems a bit "weird", you may want to investigate further before casting judgment.

I would also spend some time browsing the Boston Globe. They have done various in-depth background pieces on Mitt over the past six months. They have gone back and interviewed people that have been close to Mitt during different phases of his life and have really shed some light on "who Mitt is". It was one of these pieces that shared the story of Mitt having the family dog ride in the dog-carrier on top of the family station wagon on a family vacation that received a lot of attention from PETA... please find and read the story... it was very harmless, I think.

Key points for me for Mitt are: he is an EXTREMELY bright individual.

*Received MBA and law degree from Harvard and graduated very near the top of his class.
*Although born with a silver spoon in his hand, has worked HARD and earned a lot of what he has now.
*While at BYU, he led some amazing things with fundraising as a student.
*While at Bain, he immediately caught the eye of his bosses and was was given the chance to run Bain Capital
*In the business world, has used his intellect and a very strong analytical apporach to gather data and to make decisions based on that data.
*Also has been known for saying you need the "right people" for a project. He wants people who will challenge assumptions (especially his) and has been known to bring about compromise on many things.
*As Cheryl mentioned, he has found success in three arenas... 1) business, which tells me he knows how the free market works... what drives a profit and loss and how to make something work efficiently
2) volunteer arena (Olympics)... this tells me he understands how to "sell a vision" and to work with people... it's not about the profit, although still about efficiency, but about getting a group of people to unite towards a common goal... I was a volunteer for the Olympics and it was an experience I will always remember... I really felt like I was part of something special... 3) politics, he was a Repub governor in a traditionally Demo state... that shows me he knows how to compromise and broker deals to make progress...

He has been accused of being a "flip-flopper" but he readily admits he has changed his mind on a few issues and (to me) has given very credible reasons why. I like when somebody can admit they are wrong and are willing to re-evaluate their views.

Go to Mitt's website and watch his "Faith in America" speech... to me, that was a terrific speech, then watch his second NH debate from Sunday night.

To answer your concerns about change in government... I don't think Mitt is going to change the structure of "basic, core government". But I think there are a lot of government agencies and programs that could use a drastic overhaul, and I think Mitt is the man to do that. I also think he will bring some very good IDEAS to the table, as he is an "outsider" to Washington and will really be the first CEO/Executive to be in the White House for a very long time.

I'm not sure why he hasn't done as well as they had hoped in Iowa or NH, but it was really strange to watch SAturday night's debate where all of the other Repubs were mercilessly picking on him. I imagine in many ways that are threatened by him and are jealous of him as a person... he has raised more funds than each of them, and has a vast personal fortune that he can (and has) drawn upon for his campaign. He has good looks, a beautiful and loyal family, is married to his high school sweetheart, and on top of all that, has the gospel in his life. I guess that is a lot of things "going his way", that must rub the other opponents the wrong way. It's frustrating (to me).

I'll honestly say that I haven't watched much on the Demo side. I did watch a good portion of the D debate Sunday night, which was the first debate I really watched. I will admit that Obama has a magnetic personality. I really can't stand Hillary.. she's very grating to me. All of them seemed very much into "politic" speech. They would talk on and on but really not say much. I feel that Romney has been very focused on logic/ideas and plans. Another thing I feel is that nobody on the D side has really "run" anything. Obama hasn't as an Illinois senator. Hillary certainly hasn't. I don't even understand her qualifications... I read a joke yesterday about Brett Favre's wife saying that she was going to fill the place for her husband during a Packer's game because she had been married to him for 20 years and that somehow gave her the "experience" she needed to be a NFL quarterback. That seems just as ludicrous (to me) as having Hillary run for president.

The big argument is that Senators aren't executives.. they don't run things. Governors do act as execs, and have a bit more experience running and leading an organization. (Clinton and Bush). Romney has experience with running MANY things (a business, a non-profit organization, and a state).

Anyways, I have gone on much longer that I expected and probably lost many of you many paragraphs ago... but I would urge you to research more on Mitt. Him being Mormon is merely "gravy" for me. His many years as a bishop and a stake president just give me added assurance that on top of being a good leader, he is a good man, aligned with some very core beliefs that I share in common.

But, my main reason for supporting him is because I believe he has the experience and the intelligence to bring some change to a country that has some pretty serious issues that need to be addressed.

Best wishes to all and whatever you decide, please vote. Let your voice be heard.
posted by Biff at 1/09/2008 06:07:00 AM
cheryl's dh...thanks for that...I learned a lot!
posted by Kage at 1/09/2008 06:23:00 AM
I'm definitely not helping out any, but did anyone read Dave Barry's Year in Review?

"On the Republican side, Mitt Romney seeks to defuse the religion issue by making a major speech in which -- echoing the words of John F. Kennedy -- he declares that he is a Catholic."

Just thought it was funny.

I don't know who to vote for either. My husband likes Ron Paul but will more likely vote for Romney or McCain. I like Obama and Romney and honestly Clinton too. I need to catch up on my details before the primaries in my state.
posted by Eliza at 1/09/2008 06:34:00 AM
Do you still have a link to that quiz marian sent you? I'd be interested to know which candidates line up best with my ideas on issues. Not that it means I'll necessarily vote for them, but I'd still like to see.
posted by Anonymous at 1/09/2008 08:21:00 AM
McCain is CRAZY. I don't know if it was his time as a POW that turned his brain (probably was, poor man) but he can turn on a dime, and if his hand was on the button, this country is in serious trouble.

Vote for anyone else. I think I hate Hillary more than most people, and I'd even vote for her over McCain. The end.
posted by Anonymous at 1/09/2008 09:12:00 AM
I choose my candidate entirely on their tie choice and their celebrity endorsements.

And Brandon, you are totally right, now I definitely know there isn't a chance I will vote for Mitt. :)
posted by Anonymous at 1/09/2008 09:29:00 AM
Tftcarrie: Hilarious. I loved your last comment.

Personally I love Hil's smarts, Obama's charm, and the fact the McCain's sons are in the military.

Don't much like Romney, though he is charming and handsome (not bad traits). Can't stand Huckabee (I currently live in the South and his thinking runs deep here and SCARES me).

It doesn't seem like Guliani or Edwards has a shot so I won't comment on them.

Basically, I would never vote for someone because they were LDS or carried a temple recommend.

I come from strong 'conservative' blood, but I will probably lean Democratic in this election. Basically I love government intervention and I think it makes our country better. Wish we didn't need it, but I judge that we do. Most Mormons disagree with me on this one, but to each their own.

I'm pretty sure none of these people (whatever their party) are evil hate-mongers. The more powerful people I meet, the more I see that not everything is black and white.

As always, great topic Kage!! Too bad not more people commented on the porno discussion the other day. It probably has as far reaching effects on our country and families, as does politics.
posted by Anonymous at 1/09/2008 10:37:00 AM
This is the quiz that Kage is talking about:

http://www.wqad.com/Global/link.asp?L=259460

I find it more of a fun exercise than an actual helpful tool in picking a candidate. But, as vada said, it will give you an idea of what candidates align with you on certain issues.

I like brandon s's statement about "flip-flopping" - I wanted to say something similiar - mainly, that while I don't want someone that is purely pandering to their audience, I also am not interested in someone who is so convinced that they are right all the time that they are unwilling to listen to the other side. I think it's the mark of an intelligent and humble individual that they are able to see when they are wrong. Now, I'm not saying one way or another that this is what Mitt has done (I really don't know a whole lot about him or his positions), simply that the "flip-flop" argument has two sides.
posted by marian at 1/09/2008 10:50:00 AM
Brandon - thank you for the education. Mitt's son Taggert was in my mission. He was a very goal oriented, driven, hard working missionary. I imagine he learned those behaviors from his dad.

I live in Arizona - John McCain has done very little for our state - I think if he were elected he would do even less for the country.

Huckabee is way off base and out of touch.

I don't apreciate Hilary's pandering to her audience - the fake accents, the tears etc...

I want to know if it is true that Barack Obama does not say the Pledge of Allegiance. Does anyone know?
posted by Jolene at 1/09/2008 11:07:00 AM
Jolene, here are a few links:

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2007/11/obama-says-flag.html
http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1662530_1446035,00.html
http://thinkonthesethings.wordpress.com/2007/11/02/barack-obama-refused-to-say-the-pledge-of-allegiance-youve-been-played-for-a-daggone-fool/
posted by Anonymous at 1/09/2008 11:18:00 AM
Brandon-
You always say it better than I do. :)

tally girl-
You said: "Basically, I would never vote for someone because they were LDS or carried a temple recommend."

So, is that why you're not voting for him?

Statements like these give me pause. Not voting for Romney because you don't like his politics? That's fine. It's a free country. Not voting for him because he's Mormon? That's smells like bigotry, regardless if the religion is the same.

Now, don't get me wrong. I doubt you are a bigot, and I'm sure you like Mormons. :) But at the same time, we need to be careful about these statements. What would it sound like if someone said they wouldn't vote for Huckabee because of his religion? The same goes for Romney.
posted by Cheryl at 1/09/2008 11:56:00 AM
I would love to see Romney win the Republican nomination to see how much more his views "evolve" in order to win the moderate vote. And also because there is no chance in hell he would win a general election.

McCain is more worrisome because he can cater the moderate vote. President Clinton in a recent interview said that he would be the toughest challenger for a Dem. candidate to beat in the general and I agree....I have a lot of respect for him.

I have no idea who I will vote for btween Sen Clinton and Sen Obama, but it gives me a LOT of hope that two such outstanding candidates are battling it out and the winner will likely be our next president. I have to say that I never know what to think about the Hilary backlash....are people that afraid to have a strong woman in office? Those people will say it has nothing to do with the fact she is a woman, but I think it has everything to do with it.
posted by Jen at 1/09/2008 12:08:00 PM
After the debates and reading this I have voter fatigue ;)
posted by Coleen at 1/09/2008 01:59:00 PM
One of the main things that scares me about more governmental involvement is that if you happen to be one of those pesky small business owners, you are probably going to get taxed even more than you already are- and if you are barely getting by as it is- well, I fear how we (and others) will survive. I am preemptively afraid of being targeted as a part of a Dem's "Tax the Rich" plan. We are NOT rich, nor are most small bus. owners.
posted by Rachel H at 1/09/2008 03:06:00 PM
Cheryl,

I think you are misreading tally girls comment. I read it to mean that she wouldn't vote for a candidate just because he's mormon and just because he has a valid temple recommend doesn't mean that another mormon would necessarily agree with his politics. I think she is saying this because there are a lot of mormons (not you) that think the fact that he is a "worthy" member of the church is enough to base their and any other mormon's voting decision on. I don't think anyone here thinks that, but it is happening out there is the big mormon world.
posted by Anonymous at 1/09/2008 06:00:00 PM
carrie-
Yeah, I probably did. But she didn't say "just" in her sentence, and that's what gave me pause. It bothers me that his religion is even mentioned. How come we're not talking about Guiliani's Jewish background? Or Obama's religion? What about Hillary? It irks me that on both sides of the issue, his faith is being tormented over and over and over. It's annoying.

However, I do need to apologize to tally girl. I should have read it the way carrie (and my husband, apparantly) did. So, I'm sorry.

Last thought: Who is saying they will vote for Romney BECAUSE he is Mormon? Every single LDS person I've encountered that endorses him are very quick to say that it's not because of his religion. The Bloggernacle blogs are certainly not. So, I'm really genuinely curious. Who out there is endorsing him based solely on his religion? And why are we mentioning those "out there" who are doing this? I'm not trying to be argumentative. I really want to know.
posted by Cheryl at 1/09/2008 06:09:00 PM
I think part of Mitt's problem is that he wants to leverage his religion into political support from the evangelical right. So, he talks about his religion somewhat (I believe that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the World), and he tries to downplay any differences Mormons have with evangelicals. But, he doesn't want to talk about the things that make him different. It's hard to have it both ways. That's partly why I think he is getting some guff about Mormonism: he wants it to help him, but he doesn't want too much scrutiny. I think that may be why his religion is getting talked about so much more than other candidates.

That said, I really don't like Huckabee's side swipes at Mitt based on his Mormonism and the way that he expects the evangelicals to line up behind him simply because of their religious similarities (see Iowa). And I think that people still are somewhat suspicious of Mormons and are not ready for a Mormon candidate, and I think that's unfortunate.

I haven't liked the way Mitt has moved so far to the right. My perspective is that he has shifted his views because of political expediency and trying to court the Republican base. I can see the positive take on the flip-flop politician as earlier mentioned--not so set in their ways and can change their minds--but I am not persuaded that this is what Mitt is doing. Especially since it seems that all of his changes are in one direction: right.

I agree with you Jen. I wonder how he would present himself as a candidate in a national election as the R. nominee. How could he moderate his views enough to be a viable candidate?

This is an exciting election season, and there's no telling what will happen. I recently found out that my state has caucuses--what kind of crazy democratic process is that? I think it will great fun to head over to our local high school with our kids on Super Tuesday and go stand our in candidate's group with our neighbors.
posted by Michelle at 1/09/2008 06:50:00 PM
Great topic.
Jen - do you really think Hilary is a strong woman? I'm surprised that Mitt's view changes seem to bother you so much yet you still like Hilary. I have NO respect for that woman. If someone told her that making out with 10,000 people in Time Square at high noon would get her elected, I think she wouldn't give a second thought to doing it. She has NO principles. None. I can't even stand to look at her. I do hope she gets the nomination only because I think that is the ONLY chance a republican has of getting elected. Nothing will make people get out and vote like the thought of Hilary taking office. Gag.

Obama has got it going on...in the public speaking department. I love his ideas of cooperation and change, I just don't think he could get any of the things he is talking about done. I don't agree with his view on several issues, but I have decided that I am not going to vote this election based on moral issues at all. A first for me.

Huckabee is SO creepy. He is also an idiot. He is worse than Bush. How is everyone so dissatisfied with the job Bush is doing and then they go and vote for someone like Huckabee? HOW? He would DESTROY this already broken country. Blech.

McCain - don't like him at all. I have several reasons I could list, but I think it comes down to I can't stand to listen to him or watch him...he seems SO awkward. I know that is no reason not to vote for someone, but that is what it comes down to for me.

Now for Mitt (is anyone still reading?). I was a strong Mitt supporter in the beginning and then cooled off considerably. Now I am back. Although he has changed some of his views at convenient times I feel that unfortunately that is the only way to get the nomination. It's maddening to think that and a huge turn off to politics, but I really think a politician doesn't have a shot if they don't pander a little and change a few of their views. Look at Ron Paul. The reason I am going to vote for Mitt is that he has been a success in all the areas that I think are important for this specific term. He has great business sense (pretty much he was the mac daddy in the private sector). He has great turn around experience - the Olympics. He has great political experience. I have always been drawn to non-career politicians (I voted for Perot in my 6th grade elections). Once Mitt entered public office he wasn't tainted. He balanced the budget in MA. He got everyone Healthcare. Why aren't these the things people talk about? Why is the fact that he is a Mormon even an issue in this day? Drives me nuts. Mitt is the man for the job. And he does have a prayer. He has the highest number of delegates right now.
Go Team Mitt!
posted by Melissa at 1/09/2008 06:54:00 PM
melissa, please don't hold back, tell us how you really feel... : )

cheryl, I only stated that about "mormons voting only b/c Mitt is mormon" because growing up I met a lot of mormons who just picked the republican candidate because they were republican...and now to be rep AND mormon is really attractive to potential mormon (rep) voters.

My experience tells me that when I do meet someone mormon, I immediately feel I have a LOT in common with them, and there is usually a lot of trust that I place in them right away because we have that in common. It seems only natural that republican mormons might put that same trust in a mormon candidate because of that common ground....at least as a starting point anyway.

When I overhear conversations about Mitt amongst some of my fam members it comes down to mormon offices held and his morals and nothing about his bus. experience or the olympics or anything like that....

Admittedly I have not seen a rep. debate yet, I keep missing them...but I did hear one soundbyte from a youtube debate and a question about reading the bible, and huckabees answer to that impressed me much more than romneys.

I don't know if it is true, I just suspect that some uneducated voters are not considering the other reps b/c the religion in common factor. I hope I'm wrong.
posted by Kage at 1/09/2008 07:33:00 PM
Cheryl: no need to apologize, and all I meant was that I wouldn't vote for someone based purely on their religion. I don't happen to like Romney very much. His flip-flopping on abortion doesn't bother me because I am constantly evolving as well. I can't put it in words except to say that when George Bush speaks I have a certain reaction. When Romney speaks it is nearly the same.

As for do people vote for others based on religion, here in the South certainly they do. I have personal friends who have said of Romney, 'All I need to know is that he has a temple recommend.' I have spoken with others who support Romney yet know none of his political stances, so my assumption is that their vote is based on religion.

Again, to each their own. I personally take my time with deciding who to vote for and I constantly change my mind up until the end. I like to see who has staying power, and who can handle the crazy stress and publicity of it all.

This should be an exciting election!
posted by Anonymous at 1/09/2008 07:33:00 PM
Okay, cool. That all makes sense. I mean, I guess it's NOT cool that people would vote for a Mormon just because s/he's Mormon.

But thanks for some more clarification. I didn't want the rumors of "Mormons voting for Mormons" spreading if it was, in fact, just rumor (as I thought it was). But I'm even more relieved that it's not common.

It's so funny, but I've never been so involved emotionally in a presidential election before. Oh, sure, I've always voted, but I never followed the Primaries before. It's exciting and crazy all at the same time!
posted by Cheryl at 1/09/2008 08:39:00 PM
Does it bother anybody that Barack Obama's speeches make him sound like he's going to be the Savior of the United States? Freaks me out a bit.

Also, Ron Paul wants to abolish the Fed and go back to the gold standard. GOLD STANDARD. Do a little reading, and you'll understand that THIS IS SUICIDE FOR AMERICA'S ECONOMY.

And Huckabee? Sounded too good to be true, and guess what? He is! He was a terrible governor, and is trying to play to the evangelicals without sounding like he is, *wink, wink*. So lame.

I'm just ticked that Clinton and Obama are getting paid by the government to CAMPAIGN. What about their jobs? How can they be good senators if all they care about is climbing the ladder to political power?

All I can say is I'm not really that excited, I'm more disappointed with the coming election. And everybody treating the primaries and the Iowa caucus as though it will absolutely determine who will be president. GAH!
posted by Madame Coin at 1/09/2008 08:41:00 PM
So... I guess we all have a lot to say... :)

Michelle,

I honestly have NEVER heard Mitt proactively touting his religion. The only times I've heard him talk it about was in response to people "digging" about how his religion would affect his presidency.

On the flip side, that's seems to be all that Huckabee has done. "The Christian candidate", etc.

Anyways, Mitt is really at his best when he is talking about solving problems and is giving "off the cuff" responses. I don't care for some of his "canned" responses.

Here's a REALLY informal video that I just found today. All I can say, is that I hope I'm as athletic as Mitt when I'm 60. I sure can't imagine any of the other candidates (except maybe Obama) being this physically active and just "hanging out" with the fam.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-W6SUM__ZU

My favorite part is when Mitt calls his son a moron. :)
posted by Biff at 1/09/2008 10:17:00 PM
"And everybody treating the primaries and the Iowa caucus as though it will absolutely determine who will be president. GAH!"
emily c, on the contrary, I feel that the election is more up in the air than ever after the two states caucuses/primary. I feel that my vote in the primary is more important now than I ever thought it would be. I feel that it is still such an unknown who we will be voting for in the election!!!

re: Obama as Savior of the US...I have heard some people use the word prophet for him which is a little creepy, especially since we HAVE a prophet as part of our belief system...I don't think him is that at all...but he can give a speech....
posted by Kage at 1/10/2008 05:25:00 AM
I've been volunteering for the Obama campaign for about a year:

Kage--your wondering if you should vote as yourself or as your community is interesting. I think too many people vote as selfish individuals (who is going to be best for me?) rather than voting for who wold be best for all (who can serve the people?) Frankly in America, it comes down to our guesses about what people will do with government spending and taxes. It astounds me how many Mormons are willing to vote for their wallets rather than for the poor. Anyway, read away--I hope you find a candidate that you like.

RE: Clinton--I have already announced my bias but I find it remarkable that so many people here have been impressed with her smarts. She is, undoubtedly, smart, but look at the field: a true embaressment of riches. She actually is my senator, but I don't like the fact that she is (although she is competant). She is manipulative and opportunistic. She is responsible for nasty push-polling and other dirty dirty campaigning. Based on her actions, I judge her more interested in power/fame than in service.

RE: Obama--interesting critiques of his speaking. I find him to be a moving speaker. We have a history of glorifying great speakers after they are dead (JFK, MLK Jr)--here is one in your midst and you think he has a big head. I wonder if you might take a look at the text if you can't handle the delivery. Also, if you spent more time with Black speakers (religious and otherwise) I think you would see Obama's style in context. It is not about him--it is about including and galvanizing the audience.

I think it was Kage who mentioned questioning if Obama can actually execute his vision; look at his record and I think you will find him much more willing to compromise to get things done than the average politician. It is Clinton who will not be able to get anything done--too much baggage.
posted by ESOdhiambo at 1/10/2008 06:31:00 AM
a specatator, I am only on the second chapter of Audacity, but have just read about his death penalty bill compromise situation...seemed very effective. You are in New York? the city? volunteering? I would love to hear more about that.
posted by Kage at 1/10/2008 07:35:00 AM
I am upstate but there is a lot going on in NYC. Try www.barackobama.com --put in your zip and you can see the events in your area. There is also a nice synthesis of his positions on various issues, if issues is your thing.

I have to admit that I am to the left of the reasonable candidates on most issues--I could never get elected in America. And the lefty politicians are not particularly appealing ambassadors (imo, an important role for presidents).

Most of the candidates on both sides are remarkable centrist, so for me, it comes down to the person. Obama is the one I trust.
posted by ESOdhiambo at 1/10/2008 09:16:00 AM
A spectator- You said "It astounds me how many Mormons are willing to vote for their wallets rather than for the poor."

So you don't care how much your paycheck is taxed so long as the poor are 100% completely taken care of? I fully suport programs helping the poor learn to help themselves (loans, assitance in education, employment services, etc..).

I also think it fair to work and get compensated fairly for it, and not feel like your paycheck is getting taken away. I also love the freedom to donate more to great causes, and to have the CHOICE of where that money is going.

Anyway- Just intersted in what you meant by that statement.
posted by Rachel H at 1/10/2008 10:12:00 AM
I'm glad to see that this is being discussed. Being a poli sci major at a church school, I have become quite familiar with the greatness of Romney and the apparent evilness of Clinton. Direct quote from a classmate: "Hilary is of the devil." I can't help but laugh my head off at comments like that. I especially love it when students whip out their scriptures to prove that any other belief contrary to theirs is a sin. Another direct quote from a student: "How can you be Mormon and believe that!" I'm anticipating some more bloody stabs this semester, especially in my class entitled The Executive Branch.

For the most part, I feel apathetic about the election. Perhaps it is because I am a young, single, white, registered independent college kid whose simple life in Idaho isn't going to change much no matter which candidate or party gets elected. I wish we had more of a choice. The two parties are virtually the same. Where is the communist party? The socialist party? Lame sauce. I want REAL change.

Anyhow, I guess I'm voting for the underdog. I'm voting for the poor black kid, the single mom, the immigrant. But I doubt that my liberal vote, in a conservative state for an individual who will come to have very limited power in promoting change, will really make a difference. At least I get a sticker proving that I do, indeed, take my civil duty to vote seriously.
posted by Anonymous at 1/10/2008 10:13:00 AM
apathetic-

I understand what you're talking about. How can one person change anything? I feel that way a lot sometimes.

My good friend's MIL always votes Dem. in local elections in Northern Utah (which is not too much different than Southern ID). She says "if I can't change the country, at least I can change the city!" So, you never know what your one vote can do.

But please don't infer that those voting for people like Romney are NOT for the poor, the immigrant, the single parents...we just have a different approach in addressing those issues. I think in reality, we all want the same thing. We just all see differently in how to reach those goals.

P.S. I'm sorry those college kids say such silly things...
posted by Cheryl at 1/10/2008 10:24:00 AM
Cheryl, please don't infer that I was infering.
posted by Anonymous at 1/10/2008 12:09:00 PM
Well first of all, I'm glad you're talking about it.

I think civil discussion in our country is just about dead. Over the past few years we have become increasingly polarized . Contrary to popular belief, it's not necessary to ask for political affiliation at the neighborhood soccer game. :) But we feel that way ...because we all keep throwing the same old buzz words back and forth. Republicans watch "their" debates, root for their team, and vilify the other guys. Democrats do the same. How is this helpful? I think most people believe the truth usually lies somewhere in the middle (not the extremes). What happened to one nation?

Personally, I feel it's necessary to elevate the discourse. End the divisiveness. Stop the attack-ad nature of politics (some politicians in this race are attempting to do so). But I think that we, as voters, and citizens of this country need to do the same thing. We are all on the same team.

And, yes, one vote does matter! When you (yes you) start thinking you can't make a difference -- why be involved/care/vote? -- the whole country suffers. When you (yes you) think that way ... guess what? It's not just you. It's your neighbor and your city and the whole country. That's how we get low voter turnout (here in the bastion of democracy) and a generation of apathetic citizens.

This year can be different.

Look at the country. Look at the problems we face: recession, war, major foreign relations issues, climate crisis, health care. What kind of world do you want for your children? And what do you want them to believe? Do you want to pass on a unified America? Who can do that?

Don't let the thirty-second sound bites and the 24 hour news media make this decision for you. Like everything else ... it takes a strong intellect and an open heart to live in this world. Being an American should be about more than political ideology.

I think this election may just be the chance to transcend all of that.
posted by jp at 1/10/2008 03:25:00 PM
can I nominate y? He/She just got me teary....
posted by marian at 1/10/2008 04:14:00 PM
Rachel H--
I wrote a long reply to you earlier, but I don't see it here, so you are saved from reading it.

Simply--no, I don't mind taxes; they work for me. Because of taxes, I have great postal service (anyone who has lived elsewhere can appreciate our post offices), libraries, roads, education, fair elections, etc.

Also, I take my obligations to the poor VERY seriously and while I can do a lot as an individual, I cannot do much of what the government can. I value such programs as Medicaid, Medicare, Head Start, and HEAP that help the poor in a way that I cannot.

Does the government do stuff with "my" (based in the scriptures, I don't actually think any of it is mine, but the world does) money? Yes--that is why I vote.

I appreciate the idea of retaining more of the money to give it away as I choose, but sincerely speaking, people tend to invest or spend their tax "returns" on themselves, not help the poor with them. If we paid less in taxes, some services would not be funded and that money would likely not be spent on the poor.

I think (based on comments) that you might be a small business owner; I do not know many, but it seems that the financial risk such people take are substantial, but then, the reward can be, too. As a teacher, I have already waved my right to "fair compensation" as I cannot be compensated for being kept up all night worrying about other people's kids.

I personally would love to pay more taxes in exchange for universal health care and retirement benefits that are not tied to employment. I know many Americans view these sentiments as unAmerican; I just think it is a more Christlike way to structure our society.

I realize that mine is not a view shared by everyone and am fine with other people's ideas, but you asked about mine, so here they are.
posted by ESOdhiambo at 1/10/2008 05:35:00 PM
apathetic-
I only felt you were inferring because of your sentence:

"Anyhow, I guess I'm voting for the underdog. I'm voting for the poor black kid, the single mom, the immigrant. But I doubt that my liberal vote, in a conservative state..."

You put "voting for the underdog" next to "liberal vote". To me, it stung a little. But I'm easily offended, so you can disregard my words, anyway... :)
posted by Cheryl at 1/10/2008 05:58:00 PM
A spectator-

Fair enough! We all see things through different lenses based on our life circumstance and backgrounds. As I think Cheryl said, we often have similar hopes and desires for our country, but varying approaches to making things successful.
posted by Rachel H at 1/11/2008 05:49:00 AM
Thank you "y" - your comments were by far the most elevating and stirring in this whole conversation.

I'm with Marion - let's nomiate "y"!
posted by Sara at 1/11/2008 11:28:00 AM
Health care for everyone is a joke. Any person can walk in an emergency room and get treatment. THe biggest health crisis in America is obesity and that is highest in the states with high poverty. FOOD STAMPS. I lived in an urban poor area and government programs don't help these people, they become dependent. My city just shut down about 100 million dollars of Project housing because it became so crime ridden and dangerous. No one normal wanted to live there. We lived around the corner and the honest, decent, disabled people told us how they hated it and lived in fear. Liberal programs have destroyed many inner cities.
posted by Anonymous at 1/14/2008 06:24:00 PM
To liberals are idiots -

Have you ever been on food stamps? My family was when I was a child. I am an "honest" and "decent person." Please don't make sweeping generalizations about people you don't know. It's these kind of statements that are hurting the discourse in our country.
posted by jp at 1/15/2008 04:03:00 PM
liberals are idiots-

It's people like you that give conservatives a bad name. It makes a little sick inside.
posted by Anonymous at 1/15/2008 05:25:00 PM

Tuesday, January 08, 2008

So....

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