Tales From the Crib: Yes to Circumcision, No to Amniocentesis

Friday, March 24, 2006

Yes to Circumcision, No to Amniocentesis

Why we had our baby boy circumcized:

To look like his daddy.
To not look like an anteater down there.
Much easier to keep clean -- heard too many horror stories of un-snipped boys who got infections there and had to be circumcized as teens.
I don't know any boy or man who was traumatized by, or even remembers, being circumcized as an infant.

Why I did not get an amniocentesis despite being over 35:

I wasn't going to "terminate the pregnancy" and stop a human life just because it wasn't perfect, which is the whole idea behind finding out. Once I told the nurse I would never have an abortion, she stopped bugging me about doing this.
There are very few instances in which they could do surgery to fix the baby inside the womb, anyway.
Decent chance of causing miscarriage.
They stick a big needle through your belly!
We were prepared to love this baby no matter what his imperfections. Knowing of a birth defect three months earlier would not have changed our love for him.

I also refuse to ever get a mammogram. Why get my boobs all smooshed up when I know I'll die of heart disease or diabetes before I ever get breast cancer?

33 Comments:

I didn't have my sons circumsized. I didn't see any reason why I should that was worth putting an infant through that. I've second-guessed that decision a lot, but so far it hasn't been an issue.

And you realize you just jinxed yourself into breast cancer, right? :)
posted by Anonymous at 3/24/2006 04:36:00 PM
Our son was circumsized. It wasn't even a topic of conversation for us - of course we were going to do it. Before he went in we asked if they administered any pain medication and they said yes, then my husband went with the baby and doctor to make sure all went well.

As for amnio, I unfortunately will have to have that procedure done for my next pregnancy not because of age but because my uterus nearly ruptured with DD (child #2). Amnio will tell the drs if the baby's lungs are developed enough and the baby will probably be taken around 37 weeks to avoid the same thing happening wiht my uterus again. While I'm terrified to have the procedure done, of COURSE I'll do it - it will protect me and ultimately protect my baby.

And a big YES to mammograms ladies...
posted by chloe at 3/24/2006 05:20:00 PM
I am anxious to hear the arguments for and against here because I am pregnant with my first son...and I really don't know what to do...
gotcha...
no but really...if I were to have a boy, being in the EAST and particulary in the playgroup that was the seed for our tftc family tree here, it was the first time I heard of so many mom's abstaining from circumcision.
posted by Kage at 3/24/2006 05:29:00 PM
Why we didn't circumsize our boys:

#1 To look like their daddy.
#2 To look like an anteater down there. j/k...come on .... the penis isn't the most attractive body part no matter how it's folded.
#3 "unnecessary surgery" After having 4 necessary and very painful knee surgeries in 3 years during college, I'm not a big fan of putting my kids through any unnecessary procedures, no matter how minor.

#4 "circumcision" I did a paper in college on female circumcision and ever since, the word has had a very negative connotation in my mind. Yes, I definitely realize that the two types of circumcision are completely different and I'm not implying that baby boys are being mutilated.

#5 I buy into the conspiracy theory that some doctors don't want to see this procedure go away because it is quick and easy money for them...so they find benefits that don't really exist like the need to protect against infection.

I know that #3 & #4 are my own little hangups...and honestly, if DH wanted the boys to be circumsized, I'm sure I would have caved. To me, it wasn't a decision I agonized about...but not doing it felt right to me. I don't judge "the other side" for their decision in the slightest...

For awhile I started to wonder if we made the right decision when I thought about "locker room" situations...if my boys would fit in with the others. I know the pressures of being a kid are hard and I didn't want to add to them. However, it seems like there are enough parents choosing against...that it shouldn't be an issue for them.
posted by Jen at 3/24/2006 07:19:00 PM
I meant...circumcise....circumsize looks like supersize.
posted by Jen at 3/24/2006 07:27:00 PM
Our second child was born with Down's Syndrome. We had three more kids, and my wife got an amnio every time. Not that she would consider an abortion--she just wanted to know.

Why get my boobs all smooshed up

Um... they do revert to shape when the procedure is over, you know.
posted by Anonymous at 3/24/2006 07:37:00 PM
Did you know the procedure for circumcision is billed as plastic surgery? Veeeeeeeeeeeeery interesting.

We did not. We figured we'd let our son decide for himself, when he's old enough (don't know how old is old enough, but he's only three now so we've got time to work that out later). I can't tell you how many men have grimaced when I told them this. My reply? If that's your reaction to it, why would you do it to a baby with absolutely NO pain management experiences yet?
posted by Anonymous at 3/24/2006 07:52:00 PM
"Other arguments in favor of circumcision include concerns that an uncircumcised child will be seen as different from his friends or will feel different from his father who may be circumcised."
This is a quote from here.

Circumcising my boy would be purely cosmetic and tradition, b/c Dad is circumcised. So....I am interested in fams that have fathers and sons that are different from each other...and does that matter? One of Jen's points is "like father, like son"
posted by Kage at 3/24/2006 08:14:00 PM
Circumcision:We got the plastibell for our little ones. Done in hospital and with a numbing shot, it falls off at about the same time as their excess belly button (i just love saying that). I don't know anyone who had a boy that didn't get him circumcised. It makes me wonder how many boys there will be in the locker room who are unsnipped as opposed to those who are. Not making a judgement call, simply wondering.
Amnio: My cousin was told twice from amnio that her baby was Down's Syndrome. Twice it was completely wrong. Personal experience tells me that knowing about a birth defect beforehand didn't make me feel better or more prepared. It just gave me more time to feel helpless and worried.
Mammograms : Girl, please!! After nursing 2 babies my boobs are flat as flapjacks already, like that machine is going to do anything more!
Except perhaps save my life. Don't let it hurt you and your family to find out too late.
posted by Mo at 3/25/2006 12:11:00 AM
Interesting discussion...

OH MY HECK --get a mammogram! I can't believe you wouldn't want to be so on guard about a terrible, terrible disease. My neighbor, at a routine mammogram, was told she had herself some breast cancer. A double masectomy and months of chemo later, she's doing fine. What if she hadn't had that mammogram? She'd be dead now.
Sorry --little emotional over that one...

Circumcision really is a choice now. People claim it is religious, but I think that's not really the case anymore.

We had our son circumsised and my husband was with the doctor and nurse to be with our 2 day old and to make sure it was done in a humane way (how were we to know?). He said they numbed his penis really well, and snip-snip --they were done. He had redness and soreness down there for a few days, but it healed rather quickly. And I noticed he never cried when I changed his diaper. So, I have to believe that it's not causing infant "suffering" as everyone thinks it does. Maybe there are cases where the dr. is incompetent or something --but for us that just wasn't the case.

Oh, and we did it so he'd look like daddy. :)
posted by Cheryl at 3/25/2006 06:26:00 AM
We did a lot of research on circumcision when I was pregnant--I read a lot of articles, doctor statements, and talked to a lot of mothers about their decisions and why. We could easily have gone either way. It turns out that in recent years, the number of boys circumsized has been declining--if I remember correctly, only 55-60% of infant boys are currently circumcised (down from 85-90% in the 1950's). And the American Association of Pediatrics does not recommend or discourage it.

We finally decided that circumcision was purely cosmetic and elective and that there was no compelling reason to circumcise. I feel like it is equivalent to removing another extraneous body part. Why not the ear lobe? Questions of aesthetics are culturally shaped, and I see no underlying reason that an "anteater" is any different from an equally unsavory animal comparison for the circumsized penis.

Right after our son was born, the pediatrician asked if we wanted him circumcised, and we said no. He was immensely grateful and said, "Oh, thank you! I hate doing those procedures." So, at least he isn't part of the doctor conspiracy!
posted by Belle at 3/25/2006 06:35:00 AM
Oh...ksl...what a horrible story! Did you ever find out why they did it days early? I also think it's interesting how it never mattered between your DH and his brother...
maybe we as parents are making this a bigger issue than it really needs to be.
posted by Jen at 3/25/2006 08:04:00 AM
This is all academic for me just now but I like to think about things ahead of time so I'm prepared for them.

Initially I'd decided that any son I had would be circumcised because I didn't relish the idea of having to clean him there beyond a quick wipe with a wash cloth. I'd heard the infection argument also and thought it'd be better all around.

However, recently I've been reading in D&C and 1 Corinthians. Joseph Smith and Paul both seem to be saying that circumcision as was a law that, like animal sacrifice, was fulfilled with Christ's mission. I also get the impression that not only is it no longer needful it may actually be wrong to circumcise now. (I don't say that to judge anyone who has done so.) So now I'm leaning more toward "not" than "do."
posted by Anonymous at 3/25/2006 08:43:00 AM
I hope you're joking about never wanting a mammogram.

A Woman’s Chances of Breast Cancer Increases With Age

By age 30: 1 out of 2,212
By age 40: 1 out of 235
By age 50: 1 out of 54
By age 60: 1 out of 23
By age 70: 1 out of 14
By age 80: 1 out of 10
Ever: 1 out of 8

While breast cancer is less common at a young age (i.e., in their thirties), younger women tend to have more aggressive breast cancers than older women, which may explain why survival rates are lower among younger women.

Five Year Survival Rate By Age

Younger than 45: 81%
Ages 45-64: 85%
Ages 65 and older: 86%

Source: Imaginis
posted by lochan at 3/25/2006 08:50:00 AM
Anyone see that TLC (Discovery Health?) show about the boy whose circumcision was botched (i.e. the doc removed more than just foreskin!) and the doctor said, "Well, you should just raise him as a girl now"?

I'm NOT joking about never getting a mammogram -- I'd have to find the source, but some studies say that getting a mammogram does not do anything to better detect or prevent death from breast cancer. I don't buy into the pink ribbon brigade, although I do love Smart Start cereal.
posted by Legendary Pink Dot at 3/25/2006 11:23:00 AM
Wiz, I've worked with men in nursing homes, and I've never seen any with genital infections. Nurses are supposed to help everyone in nursing homes with genital care, whether they've been circ'd or not, and they are trained in how to clean under a foreskin. There are serious problems with the nursing care in a facility if men are getting infections- it takes a while to build up enough dead skin under the foreskin for an infection to develop. I don't think this should be a serious consideration when parents are choosing whether to circ a son. If you don't want to circ, don't worry about this. If there is a problem later, he can always be circ'd later.

I personally would prefer an "anteater" to leftover skin tags, scarring, excess tightness, or other very common problems.
posted by Anonymous at 3/25/2006 11:40:00 AM
George here (LeeAnn's husband, whose name is not, nor ever has been Carlos)...

The anteater thing was a joke (lame or otherwise); as I'm sure it was taken. The religious thing is a moot point, seeing as we aren't Jewish. The cosmetic thing was a factor, but only superficially. That being said (er, written), my reasons for wanting my son circumcised were the same reasons I'm so glad I was. I have a brother-in-law who, for medical reasons, had to be circumcised around the age of 40. He says the kidney stones he passed at another point were cake compared to that horrible experience. Yes, one can learn correct maintenance 'down there', but why bother when that need can be eliminated at an early age. The fact that having a foreskin can result in medical problems at many different stages in life (for me) is reason enough not to want it. As for the 'matching' thing, my dad wasn't circumcised and he too thought it was a great idea for his son. I never even considered the difference to be weird, I was just glad I was (snipped).

It should be obvious in this day and age that, generally, there is no right or wrong answer to this question. Like other decisions a couple makes for their family, the ‘right’ answer is the one you make together and feel good about.

The reason we were given for amniocentesis made our not wanting it an easy decision. The other reasons listed here didn’t factor into our situation, though if they did I’m sure we would have had it done. As for the mammogram, I see the validity in both arguments. It’s LeeAnn’s decision, so I wouldn’t presume to dictate otherwise. Then again, that won’t stop me from getting the ol’ finger check every once in a while now that I’m 40…
posted by Anonymous at 3/25/2006 12:13:00 PM
Yes, I'd like to know the reasoning behind NOT getting a mammogram too. I'd rather have my breasts smooshed for a test than lopped off for life because I was too chicken to get the test done.
posted by chloe at 3/25/2006 04:48:00 PM
"So....I am interested in fams that have fathers and sons that are different from each other...and does that matter? One of Jen's points is "like father, like son""

If your son has brothers, it is probably more important (to the extent that it matters at all) that he look like his brothers than his dad. I would think that you could explain to a boy as young as 3 that they used to do this operation because they thought it was helpful but now we know it isn't and that's why he looks different from dad. Given the, uh, other major differences between him and his dad, I don't know how important the difference in c/s status is anyway. And, as has already been mentioned, boys in the locker room will be about 50/50, depending on what part of the country you end up in.
posted by Julie M. Smith at 3/25/2006 05:01:00 PM
How often do fathers and sons compare? My son, as well as his best friend, both like to pee with their dads, and are fascinated that they "match". Genitalia identification (boys vs. girls, etc) is huge at a young age as kids start figuring things out, and you can bet that there is plenty of comparison going on. Now, how much they will care that they don't look the same, that's a different question. But don't assume that they won't look!

And seriously, the no mammogram thing was a joke, right?
posted by Anonymous at 3/25/2006 05:50:00 PM
Circumsision was a non-issue for us because my husband was all for it and I was indifferent. I, too, have read things in favor of "like father, like son", but who knows? I definitely think it's a personal preference. KSL that story was so hard to read. I'm so sorry you guys went thru that! If I lived in NYC, I would have had serious reservations about getting my boy circumsized with a "sugar pacifier"???!!! In CA, they use this numbing stuff that they rub on his penis. I was all sad when the nurses took the baby so our OB could do the procedure... like I was subjecting him to some awful torture... but I figured if it didn't bother my husband then I was probably just being all sensitive. My DH watched the procedure and the baby didn't even cry. It only bugged the baby a little, I think, when we changed his diaper the next few days. Ouch!
posted by Beth at 3/25/2006 09:20:00 PM
Hubby is circ'ed, first son is circ'ed, second son is not. There were no real problems with first son's circ, I just hadn't read the info. At six months, the care required to take care of second son's penis is exactly nothing.

I would never subject a baby to surgery to prevent a possible infection(s) when he was 80. Can't even wrap my head around that one.

It's a personal decision, do what's best for you and your family.
posted by Kermit~the~Frog at 3/26/2006 10:41:00 AM
I was diagnosed with stage III breast cancer at age 32, and am going through chemo now. There are some people who recommend mammograms starting at age 50 rather than 40, but I don't know of anyone (trustworthy) who doesn't recommend routine mammograms ever! Young women's breasts are dense and so routine mammograms are too difficult to read until about menopause. Dr. Susan Love's Breast Book (new 2005 edition, should be at the library) gives lots of detailed info. The researchers are trying to develop better ways to screen young women. I couldn't feel my lump until it was golf ball sized. I did a self-exam two months earlier and had a clinical exam 3 months earlier, so there is no way I could have found it earlier.

I had 3 children before 30 (thank heaven, because it looks like I'm done now!), nursed them for a total of 3 1/2 years, was on the birth control pill only 3 months, and have no family history. So sometimes life isn't fair.

Most breast cancer cases are old ladies, but there are more young women out there with it than you would think!

The mammogram I had was no big deal at all. Now, if you have to get a needle biopsy, where the needle is guided by a mammogram, you have to stay compressed for much longer and that can get painful. But the recovery from that kind of biopsy is easier than the surgical kind.

BTW my boy isn't circumcized.
posted by Anonymous at 3/26/2006 12:00:00 PM
sara r, having had a cousin in close to your exact situation (diagnosed with cancer at 34 weeks pregnant with her third baby), I know a small bit of what you might be going through. I have tried to do my best in the fight against cancer during my adult life. My goal is to participate in the Avon walk some year. I know I speak for everyone at the crib when I say: speedy recovery and God be with you.
posted by Kage at 3/26/2006 12:55:00 PM
Anecdotal evidence with small sampke size: uncirc'd males have higher pain threshhold. My DH is intact & has a VERY high tolerance for pain (lots of painful experiences have proven this), his 2 brothers are circ'd and have NO tolerance for pain at all. So, for what its worth. :-)

I like this counter to the infection argument "If we removed every part that boys might have a hard time keeping clean, there wouldn't be any boy left."

And when boys are little, their itty bitty penises don't look much like daddy's anyways. And I really don't think it is much of an issue to the son, unless the dad makes it one.

And btw, my son is intact.
posted by mindy at 3/26/2006 08:26:00 PM
kage,
we didn't circ our boy, and at age 3 he hasn't yet noticed dad looks diferent. I can't imagine why it would matter anyway. We explain away little "why" questions all the time.

we didn't do it because it's an unnecesary medical procedure, and even the tiniest pain or risk was unaceptable when wheighed against no medical benefits.
posted by HornInFBb at 3/26/2006 09:13:00 PM
Sadly, the only thing I can think about from this entire entry is that I know way too much about my friends husbands. Thank you for the penis visuals girls.
posted by Kelly at 3/26/2006 09:55:00 PM
Thank you for your kindness, Kage. I've got a lot of support locally as well. Good family and a good ward.

Besides mammograms when you are old enough, I'd also recommend getting life insurance. I had gotten it on myself (to help with child care and education expenses), and I'm glad I did because I think it would be impossible to get now. Term coverage is pretty cheap.
posted by Anonymous at 3/27/2006 07:40:00 AM
My son slept through his circumcision. I will say that right after delivery one of the nurses asked if I wanted the OB to do it then or for the Pediatrician to do it the next day. I had picked the pediatrician because he listed circumcisions as a special interest, so I told the nurse that I wanted the pediatrician to do it. She said, "Thats good, I love Dr. [X] but he is definitely just an OB."
posted by Starfoxy at 3/27/2006 08:24:00 AM
I feel for anyone who gets breast (or any type of) cancer or serious disease, although I'm hoping breast MRIs will become the norm soon and take the place of mammograms. Sure, I'm less sensitive after breastfeeding, but after my mother described it as feeling like a car running over your breast, I decided I'd eat my broccoli and hope for alternative screening methods.
posted by Legendary Pink Dot at 3/27/2006 08:40:00 AM
"I also refuse to ever get a mammogram. Why get my boobs all smooshed up when I know I'll die of heart disease or diabetes before I ever get breast cancer?"

I suppose since you said that, you probably would say the same thing about getting a colonoscopy (or any other prevenitive procedure), why do it if you will probably die from other things before you die of colin cancer.

Do you know for sure that you will die from heart disease and/or diabetes, before something else?? Why not do all that we can to prevent things before we get them so we can live a healthy life with our familys?

Diseases DON"T have to run in your family for you to get them. Often if things caught early on there are amazing things that can be done to treat them. Even if not caught early on, it's still amazing the things they can do. What is the discomfort of having a mammogram compared to the discomfort of the result of not having a mammogram? (hope that maked sense) I have had painful tests in dealing with infertility because I want kids, I think a mammogram would be a piece of cake compared to other procedures. And I know that going to the dentist is no fun sometimes, but we all do that, and if something needs to be done to fix things we do it!

If you take care of yourself now, you will be greatful in the long run (even if you are fit as a fiddle.

Breast cancer does run in my family, and I actually had one DR. tell me that he would start doing mammograms for me when I was 35, and not wait till 40 (my mom was early to mid 40's when diognosed with breast cancer).

Ladies, please get mammorgeams, paps, and other preventative testings! not just for you, but for your families too!
posted by Anonymous at 3/27/2006 09:57:00 AM
I just came across this blog while I was searchign for something else. I just have to point out here that babies do NOT sleep through circumcisions. They go into shock and pass out from the pain and most hospitals, even in Utah do not use any kind of Anesthetic at all, because it is not safe for tiny babies. Also a baby cannot tell you if the numming effect has taken place. The numming gel they apply also does not numb into the tissues, just the surface tissue. And I can tell you that being injected with a needle in the delicate genital region is exceptionally painful. I have had 3 natural births and the most pain I have ever experienced in my entire life was being injected with lidocaine to get stitched up after the birth of my first child. Please, do not underestimate the pain these babies feel during cirumcision. :( And we do remember things subconcisously. I have seen far too many babies who became "colicky" after their cirucmcisions, too. So sad. Moroni 8:8 is a very good scripture. Also if you do a bit of research you will find that the way circumcision was done in the Bible was much different than it is done today. It was a very symbolic ritual that involved a tiny little nick in the foreskin, still terribly painful, but not at all comparable to how circumcision is done today. For what it's worth, all the men in my family are intact, brothers, dad, uncles etc. and are just fine (probably Viagra free too! lol) and DH is circ'd but he did his research and we decided this was not what we would put our babies through needlessly.
posted by Anonymous at 4/04/2006 10:03:00 PM
I am an intact man, as is almost everyone in Britain born after the 1940s.

I can inform you that the foreskin is an immensely erogenous area and its loss is also the loss of the male sexuality. Imagine the removal of your clitoral hood and the resulting damage to your sex-life and you have a rough equivilent: those two organs are analogous, both are prepuces and serve the same functions.

It sickens me to know that many parents will blithely destroy that much joy for cosmetic causes.
posted by James at 10/24/2006 09:31:00 PM

Friday, March 24, 2006

Yes to Circumcision, No to Amniocentesis

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