17 different women, 36 crazy children, 0 babies in utero
Adventures, Advice and Questions from a group of Mormon women who met in Queens, NY and have now scattered all over the place.

Wednesday, February 20, 2008

Will our Vote be Recorded in Heaven?

I recently posted what I considered to be a fairly benign political post on my personal blog. I got a lot of heated discussion back and forth as a result. It was not my intent at all, I was just sharing what had moved me on that particular day.

Just when I thought the comments had died down, up popped another one just a few days ago:

"Obama is pro-abortion. If you are pro-abortion you are not Christian! "Before I shaped you in the womb, I knew all about you." Jeremiah 1:5. I believe that everyone who supports a candidate who supports abortion rights will one day stand in front of God and give an account for his actions here on earth. Obama further supports gay rights. "If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination." Leviticus 20:13. Dr. James Dobson, the founder and chairman of Focus on the Family is endorsing Mike Huckabee not Obama! Obama might make excellent speeches but would Jesus endorse him?"

Since I don't want to encourage political bashing on my blog, I did not reply. I did not reply to any of the basher comments on there. I don't even want to reply here for the amount of controversy it could potentially stir up. But I will say that I don't believe any candidate to be "pro-abortion". Certainly everyone realizes there are far too many abortions being performed in the US, which I think is another reason why many candidates want to teach health that covers more topics than abstinence....but I digress.

In this election choice vs. life is not an issue I am voting on. I think there are other issues that are far more important right now, especially since overturning roe vs. wade is highly unlikely.

What I really want to know is if you agree with this commenter "that everyone who supports a candidate who supports abortion rights will one day stand in front of God and give an account for his actions here on earth" ???? And if so, does this affect how you look at a candidate and how you vote?

Or, to take the abortion issue completely out of it, will we one day be judged for how we voted in every election we ever voted in, and does that affect how you vote?


  • As a visitor to Tales, I would just like to say that I disagree with the idea that we will be judged by our votes. But what do I know? I think that if that were true, we will be judged by everything including watching or reading things that include such topics as you mentioned. If that were true, I am going to hell for loving and watching shows such as "Will and Grace."

    Come on people, let's pull our head out of the sand...supporting someone who bombs other countries where many innocent people are killed isn't any more ethical than voting for someone who allows abortions.

    Politicians are politicians...it's rare to find someone that you will fully agree with. God will not punish us for voting for someone that we support, but don't agree with on everything.

    There's my two cents...coming from someone who used to know which party she belonged to. The beauty of living in this country is our right to vote, so step into that booth and make YOUR choice.
    posted by Blogger La La Land at 2/20/2008 08:04:00 PM  

  • We are going to be held accountable for EVERYTHING we do/say/think/feel. But do I think that means voting for Obama is wrong?

    I would like to think not.

    Politics are tricky business. And personally, I don't think enough people make it a matter of prayer. In fact, I dare any person to admit that they pray about their political decisions, especially presidential candidates. But with that said, I don't think anyone should be condemned for voting their conscience. People feel differently about different issues. And to not vote for one particular candidate on one particular issue is dangerous in our country, because there are so many blasted issues to think about. So, which one is the best? And how do we decide?

    So, to answer your question, kage. Yes. Our vote will be recorded in Heaven. Like I said --EVERYTHING will be recorded. We're told in the scriptures that they will be! But --But! I honestly doubt it will affect your eternal life. If anything, I'm sure the Lord will commend you for being honest with yourself and others around you.

    P.S. I hate it when people get snarky on personal blogs. Especially when they are anonymous. It's so incredibly rude, and it drives me nuts! I'm sorry you had to endure that...
    posted by Blogger Cheryl at 2/20/2008 08:20:00 PM  

  • It is for the commentor on your post that the phrase "Crazy Christian" was coined. Ridiculous.
    posted by Anonymous Anonymous at 2/20/2008 08:20:00 PM  

  • No, I don't believe that...I don't believe any of it. Frankly, I find it offensive. I find it patently offensive as a Christian.

    I'd like to find out what they think about being a good steward of the earth, or offering healthcare to all, not doing an eye for an eye capital punishment, or a myriad of other Christian-type issues.

    I hope everyone votes their conscious, but I'm not about to accept that your commenter has the right to dictate to me what my conscious should contain.

    That's the beautiful thing about this country: James Dobson doesn't run it. Separation of church and state is just about my favorite thing ever.
    posted by Blogger Azúcar at 2/20/2008 11:55:00 PM  

  • I think we will be held accountable for how and why we vote, not for whom we vote.

    Truly, voting for a president ought to be a lot less issues-oriented than it is. Congress is for issues, presidency is for competency.
    posted by Blogger SilverRain at 2/21/2008 04:45:00 AM  

  • I think that if you bring up a political person/subject in a conversation (online or in person), you have to be prepared to hear other people's rants. Emotions just run too high, as I'm sure you know ;) If you are willing to take this on, by all means continue to post about politics in a public format, but otherwise don't be surprised at the comments.

    This is why politics is usually verboten in polite company unless you are close friends and know each others affiliations (whether or not you agree).
    posted by Anonymous Liz at 2/21/2008 05:36:00 AM  

  • I think it's commendable that you didn't respond to that ridiculous political bashing comment on your blog. Why reduce yourself to their level when they clearly want an argument? It is rude and annoying.

    It sounds like they are very "black and white" in their thinking about God and the after life. Even at the press conference when they announced President Monson as the new prophet, the church spokesperson CLEARLY stated that the church is NEUTRAL politically. So why is this an issue of who votes for who?! I agree with la la land, it's OUR choice of who we vote for. This has nothing to do with our eternal damnation or anything like that... Can you imagine... "Sorry- you voted for Obama. He's a Democrat. You are no longer celestial material." :)

    As far as my take on voting for someone who supports abortion, I believe they only support it based on rare circumstances- such as rape, or endangerment to the life of the mother. I do NOT think they believe anyone should have an abortion any time they want.

    I am personally voting for Obama because I agree with many of his issues he stands on. Regarding his abortion support, I don't think we will "stand before God" and be punished for voting for someone who supports it. What kind of a God is that? Not the loving, merciful, understanding, all-knowing one that I believe in.
    posted by Blogger LJ at 2/21/2008 08:54:00 AM  

  • This comment has been removed by the author.
    posted by Blogger brenbot at 2/21/2008 09:35:00 AM  

  • Apologize if this is a major threadjack and if it is, just ignore.

    It is my understanding that Mormons believe in free agency. Do other Christians? If you believe in free agency, shouldn't you be pro-choice? I am probably thinking too black/white about this...
    posted by Blogger brenbot at 2/21/2008 09:37:00 AM  

  • Abortion is not the only issue in this election. It was not the only issue in the last election. It is unlikely to be the only issue in any election, and yet there are many Christians who are manipulated into voting for certain candidates based solely on this issue.

    I think that God wants us to think carefully about who we vote for - to be informed, to weight all of the evidence, and then make the best decision that we can. I don't think that anyone will be refused entry into heaven because they voted for the 'wrong' candidate.
    posted by Blogger Nancy at 2/21/2008 09:39:00 AM  

  • I just applied my reasoning to other things and it doesn't really make sense. Please ignore me. I need to think about things longer before I type.
    posted by Blogger brenbot at 2/21/2008 09:40:00 AM  

  • I don't think Jesus would endorse anyone. I'm sure He's above something as petty as politics.
    There isn't a candidate out there right now that accurately reflects my position on ALL the issues, so I just have to go with whomever is closest. I'm not voting on social issues as much as issues of the economy and the military. Gay marriage and abortion are not decision makers for me.
    I will not be held accountable for another woman's choice to have an abortion, period. I believe that (wo)man will be punished for their own sins and not for(someone else's) trangressions.
    I don't support national healthcare, I don't support the idea that we should expect to be in Iraq for the next 100 years, and I don't support being forced to switch to CF bulbs, the end.
    I have been shocked recently at the amount of bitter attacks from one camp to another and back again. It seems to me that as I was growing up people discussed their stance on issues and didn't resort to calling someone stupid because they had different priorities.
    People who intrude on personal or family space to use it as a soapbox and to point fingers irritate me greatly. Especially people who don't know the person they're talking to/about.
    posted by Blogger Mo Mommy at 2/21/2008 09:52:00 AM  

  • I've heard that Pres. Hinckley said to vote for the best person, regardless of the party. I've also heard that he has voted for both Republican and Democratic candidates in the past.

    I did find a transcript from a National Press Club Interview with Pres. Hinckley in 2000. He was asked "Given the platform and positions taken by the Democratic Party, can you be a good church member and a Democrat?". He responded "Yes, I think so. I don't know why you couldn't. It depends on what you believe as a Democrat in terms of some things. There are some things we don't subscribe to. We've got lots of Democrats in the church, lots of them, and they are good people. I don't worry about that too much."
    posted by Blogger tamrobot at 2/21/2008 10:05:00 AM  

  • We believe men will be punished for their own sins and not for Adam's (or Bush's or Obama's) transgression.
    We vote for them to make the best of a bad situation. There are no perfect answers to our world's problems.
    posted by Blogger Alyson P. at 2/21/2008 10:08:00 AM  

  • This person's comment on your website is hardly worthy of a response, but unfortunately I think many Mormons think like this. So, my response (briefly) would be something like this:

    Christianity teaches that "pure religion" is taking care of the poor, needy and afflicted. In particular, the Book of Mormon (which we believe was specifically written for our day and yet says nothing about abortion per se) is full of warnings about oppressing the poor and admonitions to impart of our substance to the poor, needy and afflicted. The writers of the Book of Mormon saved their harshest criticism for communities who puffed themselves up in riches while ignoring the needy. Those writers also saved their highest praises for people who, as a community, banded together to ensure that there were no poor among them. You simply cannot read the Book of Mormon without coming away with an understanding that God has little patience with societies that tolerate vast inequalities of wealth between the rich and the poor.

    To the extent that we are going to vote based on a single issue, shouldn't it be the one most emphasized in the scriptures and particularly those scriptures that we believe were written with our day in mind? So, ask yourself - which of the candidates or political parties do you think most coincides with these scriptural teachings regarding the rich and poor? Now, go vote accordingly.
    posted by Anonymous Todd L. at 2/21/2008 10:16:00 AM  

  • I don't really have anything to say that hasn't already been said a few times already, but it is interesting that there are so many people inside and outside the church that think you can't be a good mormon (or a good Christian) if you vote Democrat. I obviously don't agree.
    posted by Blogger TftCarrie at 2/21/2008 10:16:00 AM  

  • AS someone who believes strongly that young women in this country and throughout the world need to be educated about the consequences (psychological, emotional, and physical)of abortion, and also that SOCIETY as a whole needs to provide BETTER options and resources for those who find themselves pregnant, I do NOT agree with your commenter on your blog.

    First of all, you can not be judged for choosing to vote for someone who all you know about them is what they put out for the public to see. Essentially we all can only see politicians' public persona and try to weigh in their claims about thier proposed policies etc.. and try to choose the best we can to vote for somene who is going to do good things for our country.

    I always try not to judge those who have differing political views than me because I know that our views have developed based on a lifetime of experiences. And my politial ideas are also based on the way I was raised as well,
    which I know can even within Mormon families be totally different.

    I, for example, come from a VERY military background. Every man including my own DH for 3generations back have all served thier countries within the Air Force or Navy. That affects how I view solutions to world problems today.

    My final thought is just don't judge others based on thier political leanings. Many people obviously have differing views, which have been accumulated over a lifetime. And that is okay. Thank goodness we have the right to vote in our great country!
    posted by Blogger Rachel H at 2/21/2008 10:19:00 AM  

  • P.s. Oh, and despite my feelings about abortion, I do feel that being Pro-Choice vs. Life in this year's election is truly NOT a huge factor. I think there are more pressing issues to deal with than that. Since Mitt Romney is out, I am mostly just hoping for the least of the 3 evils to win! How's that for optimism!
    posted by Blogger Rachel H at 2/21/2008 10:25:00 AM  

  • Oh honey (Todd L),

    I love it when you speak Democrat. :)
    posted by Blogger TftCarrie at 2/21/2008 10:29:00 AM  

  • Kage, I think you are right on when you say that (tell me if I'm putting words in your mouth) voting for a presidential candidate based on one hot-button issue (abortion) is a mistake because abortion laws aren't going to change anytime soon (I hope). People get so sucked into these hot button issues and it drives me insane! And I'm going even more insane because I still haven't decided who to support!!!
    posted by Blogger Jen at 2/21/2008 10:55:00 AM  

  • I think it's sad abortion isn't even an "issue" anymore. Abortion is a tragedy for everyone involved. Forget about killing babies, lets talk about great uncle joe getting his free annual exam. But republicans/democrats don't seem to be exactly making changes with anything that really matters so I don't know if I'll even vote. I'm disenchanted.
    posted by Blogger Amelia at 2/21/2008 11:01:00 AM  

  • I'll vote for Azucar in comment #4!
    posted by Blogger cchrissyy at 2/21/2008 12:03:00 PM  

  • It's a fallen world, people, and Jesus ain't runnin' for president. We have to vote for somebody, and we don't get to choose who runs. I'm glad that Mr. Dobson feels the need to support somebody as blatently anti-Mormon as Huckabee. Bully for him. And sheesh, a vote for Obama doesn't mean making him Supreme Ruler of the Universe. Some people seem to forget that.
    posted by Blogger Heather O. at 2/21/2008 12:47:00 PM  

  • I too agree with Azucar and ditto what tftCarrie said (minus the comment to her DH :)

    And I just don't think that abortion (and all the issues surrounding an unwanted pregnancy) is black or white. I can see how people go down that road in their thinking, but I just don't agree. It's nice, Kage, to read that so many people don't agree with the commenter on your blog as well.
    posted by Blogger Beth at 2/21/2008 01:55:00 PM  

  • WOW! I guess I don't have to be self-conscious talking about politics at family gatherings anymore (Carrie, Todd, Tamra, Brenna). I didn't realize that the Democratic party had gained such strength. Seriously though, it used to be a little uncomfortable being afraid that DH and my Dad might "get into it" over politics. I soon found out that my DH doesn't "get into it" with anyone outside the courtroom. I'm glad we're getting a little diversity in the family.

    It wasn't a big deal for me to switch parties when I married a Dem because I wasn't that into politics and, hey...I was in love. DH spent the four days it took us to travel from CA to VA for law school after we got married to explain the differences between the parties and conclude that we should be Democrats. He made some very persuasive arguments (at least they were to a young girl who hung on every word that he said). In fact, he took my triple combination and highlighted King Benjamin's sermon in Mosiah and wrote boldly in the margin "WHY WE ARE DEMOCRATS". I loved it. I was broken hearted when that set of scriptures was lost - but it still makes me smile whenever I read those passages. OBAMA IN 08!!
    posted by Blogger Kathi at 2/21/2008 04:59:00 PM  

  • Kathi,

    Don't get me wrong, I am still pretty firmly in the R column. It's just that I've never understood why some people think you can't be a Democrat and a good Mormon (or any other Christian faith). That the Republican party is the "knee jerk" reaction for most long-time Mormon families makes me wonder whether our faith really puts enough emphasis on the things that our scriptures explicitly teach are the most important. If anything, it seems that we ought to be knee-jerk democrats, who must work hard to justify our republican leanings.
    posted by Anonymous Todd L. at 2/21/2008 06:15:00 PM  

  • I'm nominating Heather O for an award:
    'Best use of "Bully for him" in a blog comment'
    posted by Blogger Mo Mommy at 2/21/2008 11:08:00 PM  

  • I just wanted to add my two cents about this issue. President's do not make laws, legislators do. It is wrong to take life, but obviously the Lord makes exceptions. It is not up to us to judge someone else because of their take on these hot button topics.

    However, since we are on the topic..I personally am pro choice because our own Mormon church is (read their statement on their web page-lds.org, then click on newsroom). To me my political opinion is simple; there should be some restrictions so it isn't as readily available as candy, but not so many that a woman who, for whatever reason needs one, can't get one.

    Abortion a tragedy for everyone involved, but in the end it is a serious medical decision best left to the woman, her partner, and doctor; not Uncle Sam.

    I'm glad to see so many commenter's tolerant of other's political beliefs on this blog.
    posted by Anonymous Anonymous at 2/22/2008 05:27:00 AM  

  • Since there seems to be so many truly thoughtful women posting on this topic, I wanted to post this link to my fave organization on the topic of abortion, just FYI. Here look and read around, and possibly get a fresh take on an old subject.
    posted by Blogger Rachel H at 2/22/2008 07:11:00 AM  

  • Here's what I know for sure:

    No one knows who Jesus would endorse.

    We're "judged" in this life (or the next) according to our actions and the intentions of our hearts. And who can judge that? The blogosphere? Dr. James(excuse-me-while-I-take-a-deep-breath)Dobson?

    The BEST we can hope for is to live our lives with integrity and compassion towards our fellow-men. Regardless of your political, religious, or world-views -- I truly believe we are all part of the same human family. I think we all have enough experiences in our own "raised-together" families to recognize that we don't always agree with each other. And what do we do with the brother who decides to run off to San Fran with his lover? Well, you respect him. You love your suicial sister. Or your manic-depressive mother. Your alcoholic uncle. Or whatever. No one has a perfect family.

    The human family is imperfect.

    People make CHOICES. And I believe, in my heart, it is our job as brothers and sisters to respect those choices. Because everyone has a right to live their lives as they see fit. Isn't that what this life is all about?

    As long as YOUR rights aren't stepping on mine ... I think I'm fine.

    But trying to force people to do / live / be / choose something they are fundamentally opposed to ... well ... that seems like a different plan. And that's not something I'm interested in.

    Ultimately, I love our country, (and the good news of the gospel) because it celebrates the right people have to choose for themselves.

    I want to be respected for my choices -- so I must respect others whether or not I'd make the same decision.

    I think Christian people should start seeing that as a primary responsibility as members of the human family.

    It's just a thought ... but maybe that's something Jesus would do. Who knows.
    posted by Blogger y at 2/22/2008 08:09:00 AM  

  • While I do not support abortion as a form of birth control, I cannot say that I am anti-abortion because I believe in the right for a woman to have an abortion should she be raped, have her life in jeopardy, or some other medical crisis that I cannot even fathom.

    Should the right to choose be eliminated, women would not be allowed an abortion for any/all medical reasons.

    That being said, will I be held accountable for supporting a candidate that also supports that right? I do not think so - if I voted for someone who did not support that right and then they changed their mind - would I be accountable then because technically I supported them in the first place.

    I also do not think that I will be held accoutable for all abortions that take place just because I support the woman's right to choose in case she is diagnosed with cancer the week she finds out she is pregnant and opts to terminate the pregnancy to undergo chemo so that she will be around to raise her other 3 children.

    I will be held accountable for my own choices - not those of others. (2nd Article of Faith)
    posted by Anonymous Anonymous at 2/22/2008 09:29:00 PM  

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