17 different women, 36 crazy children, 0 babies in utero
Adventures, Advice and Questions from a group of Mormon women who met in Queens, NY and have now scattered all over the place.

Tuesday, July 11, 2006

My chest is flat and I'm ok with that.

Z and I were talking about plastic surgery today while we worked out and tried to make ourselves more appealing, the "natural" way.....not another set of 15 please! And it got me thinking about plastic surgery. I think it is safe to say that I will NEVER get plastic surgery. I know, I'm young, this could change, but I don't see it happening.

Carrie will say that I have been genetically blessed (face-wise) and I wouldn't understand if someone really wanted say a nose job and the difference that could make in their lives. True, I don't understand that, my mom gave me a good face. And if I am going to be swayed, I would be swayed in that direction, as long as it didn't become an addiction like some people we have seen. But do you think Ashlee Simpson has had some dramatic change in how she feels about herself because she got a little taken off the top? I liked her old nose.

I think it's a popular question posed to celebrities: "What are your thoughts on plastic surgery?" Here is the interviewer asking this slice of the population that are probably the MOST attractive in the entire country/world and they have the guts to suggest that this attractive, well-liked, successful, probably gotten where they are in part by their looks celebrity might need plastic surgery. I don't get it. If I were the person being asked that, celebrity or not, I would take offense! What are you suggesting? If you were me, where would you start first? Etc.

To me our bodies are a map of our life. It is a literal imprint of where we came from, the choices we made, the ones we didn't choose, and who we are. From the inside to the outside to the scars to the laugh lines, we should relish in what life has brought our way. If we were living one hundred years ago, would it even occur to us that our boobs should be bigger?

I know some of my tales girls disagree with me on this...so I want to know why. How many of you have plans to get something added, taken away, nipped or tucked? What are your reasons? I want some soulful answers here ladies...make me get it.


  • You need to remember people get plastic surgery for all sorts of reasons. Your ideals are nice for a young, beautiful girl but I think you should never say never.
    posted by Anonymous An older reader at 7/11/2006 08:12:00 AM  

  • I pray that the determination to love themselves as they are and to accept the changes nature brings to all who walk this mortal coil is not merely a province of the "young and beautiful."

    I want to maintain a healthy weight and activity level-- which I'm not very good at right now but I'm trying-- but I will never pin my self-esteem to Madison Avenue's ideal, never-aging woman. I say that "never" clearly and deliberately. I am drawing a line in the sand so that I know it is there and can remind myself of my goals.

    My mother is in her 50's. She's had six pregnancies and nursed three children in addition to all the other projects of her life like dentistry and gardening. She has EARNED her body but all I ever hear is her complaining about how "fat" she is-- despite the fact that she only weighs about 10 pounds more than I. That is a road I don't believe anyone should travel.
    posted by Anonymous Proud Daughter of Eve at 7/11/2006 08:34:00 AM  

  • Maybe if we all could get our photos airbrushed we would not be concerned with plastic surgery :)
    posted by Anonymous Anonymous at 7/11/2006 08:51:00 AM  

  • Oh boy, this is tough. There are moral, health and social issues at play, as well as vanity. A year and a half ago, I had breast reduction surgery- and while this was a medical necessity and corrected degenerative back problems, there was a substantial boost to my self esteem when my breasts no longer turned the corner before I did...

    I would have that surguery again ten times over for the difference it has made in my life. But would I undergo another, less necessary proceedure? I have to say it's a tiny bit tempting- my vanity would love the Pizza Dough from three babies to disappear, but I also want to strive to appreciate myself more as I am. Now that I have a daughter, I'm also more keenly aware of how my own body image is going to help her form hers. I don't want her to see me critical of my body or always dieting, a-la my mom.

    At this point, I would have to lean towards No, and try and work on the inner things that make for a happy, whole person. But then, I have had my largest problem fixed, so maybe I'm not terribly objective after all.

    I like the ideal of appreciating our bodies as roadmaps of a life well lived, and I hope I can continue that appreciation when the laugh lines and waddle start to appear!
    posted by Blogger Tracy M at 7/11/2006 09:02:00 AM  

  • I understand your points Kage, it sounds idealistic to me. I think even those who are not seriously swayed by the societal pressures to appear perfect have something they may want to change about themselves. But, I think, as the word of wisdom tells us for nutrition, moderation in all things right? I look at it that way. I think if a LITTLE PS is something that a person feels will really help them live a more self-assured life, then more power to them.

    You have to understand not all people have lived lives where they grew up with that acceptance/love/assurance/etc.. form their parents, even questions about feeling acceptable to a Heavenly parent, and at least from the experience I have had I know that people have deep seeded reasons for how they view themselves.

    I am definately not saying that PS is the answer to those deep problems, but sometimes, during a healing period of one's life it may play an accessorial role in helping someone accept themselves better. I have seen it do that for someone close to me.

    Anyway.. I am not extrememly against or FOR, I just think like most things it will vary depending on a person's situation.
    posted by Blogger Rachel H at 7/11/2006 09:13:00 AM  

  • As someone who works in the design department at one of the Estee Lauder cosmetic companies I can attest to you that there is not a single image that leaves this place that isn't heavily, HEAVILY retouched. Not only do models generally have bad skin but their profession is their body/face. If any of you could focus the same amount of thought/time on your body as you do on your kids/careers most of you could look the same. And they're always hungry... ALWAYS. And they generally have terrible self-esteem anyways.
    posted by Blogger Rusty at 7/11/2006 09:20:00 AM  

  • I think plastic surgery is a very personal decision. A friend of mine got a boob job. At first, it shocked me. She didn't strike me as the "type". I was talking to her and she was telling me about all the people who were disgusted telling her she wasn't happy with the body God gave her. She wondered why people who got braces didn't get the same reaction. "You're not happy with the teeth God gave you?" She has a point. Ok - it's not surgery. But you are still altering something to look better. Kage, I know you to be an advocate of all things dental, maybe you can see it in that light?
    I should never say never, but I really don't see myself ever getting any surgery. I wasn't blessed with a flawless face, or great bod, but I am fine with what I've got. I'd rather spend the money to travel. But those are my feelings now. Who knows what they will be circa 5 kids, age 50.
    I also think plastic surgery can be a very dangerous road. What if once you have the C's, you aren't satisfied? Then comes lipo. Still not satisfied. A nose job? Botox? Tucks, nips? It could get out of hand very easily.
    posted by Blogger Melissa at 7/11/2006 09:33:00 AM  

  • The comparison to braces is flawed. Misaligned teeth make it much harder for the gums to stay healthy. Unhealthy, receding gums can mean tooth loss or worse. This is an actual medical problem that can be prevented by straightening teeth.

    On the other hand, other than mastectomy patients, I've yet to hear of a medical need for breast implants.
    posted by Blogger MistaBen at 7/11/2006 11:23:00 AM  

  • Okay, first of all Botox my friends is the greatest invention ever! And just for the record it isn't PS. Not even close. If you haven't done it. I recommend trying it before even thinking about commenting on it.

    Now as far as plastic surgery. It is really hard to determine what you would do if you haven't lived with something on your body your whole life that you absolutely hate! I don't have that problem. Sure there are things I wish were smaller, bigger and firmer. But I don't have a third eye, or gigantic mole on my face, or even a large nose. I'm pretty sure if I did, I would think about PS all the time and if it were presented to me by doctors that they could change that feature and I would love how I looked I would definatley do it.

    I used to watch Extreme Makeover all the time. I cried just about every episode. To see these people transformed to a state where they couldn't believe it was them. To see the self esteem run through their veins. It was so awesome! I really think if money were no object alot of us would re consider a little lipo or tuck here or implant there.

    If a PS could guarentee me that when he performes lipo on my stomach that the fat would never come back. I would be in his office tomorrow!

    I would say to you youngins out there. There really is alot to say about age and how differently you will feel. I think that a flatter chest is so sexy! I didn't think that ten years ago.

    And bottom line never say never!!!
    posted by Blogger Zinone at 7/11/2006 11:29:00 AM  

  • I'm in the primary presidency in our ward and last night at a meeting this subject came up. All 3 of the other members of the presidency said they wanted to get a boob job...I was saddened by that. I really like what Elder Holland said on the subject, "In terms of preoccupation with self and a fixation on the physical, this is more than social insanity; it is spiritually destructive, and it accounts for much of the unhappiness women, including young women, face in the modern world. And if adults are preoccupied with appearance—tucking and nipping and implanting and remodeling everything that can be remodeled—those pressures and anxieties will certainly seep through to children. At some point the problem becomes what the Book of Mormon called “vain imaginations.” 11 And in secular society both vanity and imagination run wild. One would truly need a great and spacious makeup kit to compete with beauty as portrayed in media all around us. Yet at the end of the day there would still be those “in the attitude of mocking and pointing their fingers” as Lehi saw, 12 because however much one tries in the world of glamour and fashion, it will never be glamorous enough." (October conference 2005)
    posted by Anonymous Anonymous at 7/11/2006 12:22:00 PM  

  • Horsefeathers, Zinone. :)

    I will never: cheat on my husband.
    Smoke a cigarette.
    Throw my children out of the house.
    Turn my back on God.

    There are many things worth saying "never" too. You and I may disagree what those things are but nonetheless there are things that it's worth it to swear never to do.

    And for the record I have nothing against medically necessary plastic surgery-- like breast reduction surgery to alleviate back pain or my mom's eye lift that restored several degress of vision previously obscured by folds of skin. I sympathize with those who feel opressed by certain aspects of their body. In the end I think it's between them and God. I just reject the "inject deadly viruses into our skin" and "mold our bodies like clay into Madison Avenue's design" mentality. "Botox: because you're worth it?" No. Love, live and laugh because you're worth it. As I keep telling my mother, when she frets that my face is too expressive and I'll have wrinkles: I want a face that's lived in. I want people to be able to see my smile lines and even my frown lines. Your face shows much of your character and I want people to be able to see mine.
    posted by Anonymous Proud Daughter of Eve at 7/11/2006 12:25:00 PM  

  • So I think I get the whole "medical reason for doing something" And if you are going under the knife for a medical reason, why not have them do a cosmetically good job, or even do a few non-medical things while they are at it.

    I like the Elder Holland quote b/c our children are looking to us. And it is just recently that I have heard of kids getting their boobs done as a high school graduation gift. Pretty soon it is not going to be IF our girls get implants, but when. Much like piercing my ears when I was a child, my mother made me wait until I was 12 (I begged enough to push it back to 10)...but is that going to be the new thing...."mommy, Puh-LEASE let me get my breast implants when I get my drivers license, as a reward for getting it, and because I got straight A's (except for that one C) last quarter, and was not grounded once, and because I only kiss boys, not give them..."

    Ay ya ya ....I am scared for the future. I think that protecting our girls from being objectified is probably my most compelling reason for not wanting to alter ESPECIALLY my boobs.

    Most of all I just want to grow old gracefully. I have no doubt that that will involve air-brushing...even when I am doing the DENTURE ads a hundred years from now. And even though we all logically know that our media is portraying something that is unattainable...we have all seen girls that have it all together and gone: "Now what would it take to get THAT"...and they are real, and they are walking down the street, and they are not airbrushed (maybe just a little air-tanned)
    posted by Blogger Kage at 7/11/2006 01:02:00 PM  

  • My mom had breast implants--I think she got them in her early 20's at the urging of my father (whom she divorced a few years later). I didn't know for a long time, I just thought she had great boobs and I was excited for my visit from the very same boob fairy. Well, high school comes around (and I'm still flat as a board) and my mom finally tells me they're not real. . . not only are they not real, they're making her sick. She's had a myriad of health problems over the years, so I'm not sure how much of her health problems can be traced to her implants, but I'm pretty sure A LOT of her problems stem from them. They ruptured and she had silicon in her body. She almost died. She was in and out of hospitals and in the end had to have them removed. She had to be on steroids for a while, which of course only made her gain weight, only now she doesn't have the boobs to even out the proportions of her weight gain. In short, her implants ravaged her body. We haven't talked about it in a while, but my mom expressed to me once that she had prayed for Heavenly Father to help her get rid of her vanity. It worked.

    I agree with Elder Hollands talk.

    For my mom (and for MOST women) getting a boob job was a vanity issue and in the end simply not worth it. I know this isn't a common experience and that they are much "safer" these days, but I think I can safely say I will NEVER get a boob job.

    (I'm not saying they're aren't exceptions, but I think we're talking about the majority of women here, and most of us don't have medical reasons or significant abnormalities).
    posted by Blogger miggy at 7/11/2006 01:25:00 PM  

  • I'm with Tracy M in that I had medically necessary nose surgery and while under the knife, got a much improved nose. It definitely boosted my self-esteem at the time. And I like my nose. But if I didn't have my accident, I don't know if I would ever even have considered having a nose job?

    I think the thing that makes me hesitate about PS is the risk factor. You always hear those stories on Dateline about lipo gone wrong or a lop-sided boob job. If someone could guarantee 100% results, I think I'd consider PS after I did about a thousand other things with my money. It's not very high on the priority list. And I don't want to risk permanent damage to my body. There is also something nice about thinking you made it to the end of your life au-natural, and hopefully happy, healthy, and in-shape.

    I think the thing that is hard for so many of us is that as women we spend A LOT of time worrying, obsessing, cringing, and sulking over our "less than perfect" (perfect of course in a worldly sense) bodies. It is tempting to think about the possibility of going into surgery for a few hours and getting rid of all the imperfections so that we can get on with our lives. But that doesn't really line up with gospel principles does it? I want to challenge my self through my body issues. I really want to learn to love and appreciate my body.
    posted by Blogger Beth at 7/11/2006 01:56:00 PM  

  • I think there are so many nuances to plastic surgery that covering it all with one blanket statement just doesn't work. But, I am glad you have drawn this line for yourself Kage, because in your industry you are going to feel the pressure far more than most women. And if those are the reasons ("relish what life has brought our way") you need to give yourself to stick to that line, then more power to you. To me, they just don't work because then I couldn't justify wearing makeup or a padded bra or whitening my teeth.

    I have always toyed with the idea of getting a little shaved off my nose. I have always been a little self-conscious about it even though everyone says "I love your nose!" Doesn't matter. Does this mean that I don't love myself? Absolutely not.

    The reason I probably won't end up getting a nose job or a boob job (after my five kids) is that I'm scared of a botched job. But if I did go through with either, I think my kids would be wise enough to understand that not all choices are a result of societal pressure, spousal pressure, or excessive vanity.

    Teaching our children to not get caught up in this look obsessed world of ours is not an easy task but we have to realize that we are all caught up in it on some level.

    And as for the quote from Elder Holland, I think it is important to remember that "preoccupation with self and fixation on the physical" does not just limit itself to the action of PS. While he does specifically speak of nipping and tucking everything there is to nip and tuck, the core of the statement is addressing our mindset. I have met MANY women who have a fixation on the physical who wouldn't get PS and many women who have had PS that definitely do not have that share that same obsessiveness. The first group seems more destructive to me.
    posted by Blogger TftCarrie at 7/11/2006 01:58:00 PM  

  • Kage, while I used to have a black and white view of plastic surgery, I have softened my stance over the years. I still think there are very good reasons to avoid plastic surgery, and I think the decision to get any elective surgery must be carefully considered. But I no longer think it is necessarily morally wrong to do so. Consider the following:

    Cosmetics: I think almost every woman has used some sort of concealer to cover blemishes in their skin. What if there were a concealer that would permanently cover those blemishes, without any possible side effects? No stretched skin, no permanently surprised look, just natural looking flawless skin. Kage, are you telling me that you wouldn't jump at such a product if, 10 or 15 years from now, your casting agent told you that you were perfect for a job on Broadway if you could just smooth out those few wrinkles around your eyes? My guess is that you currently use products that attempt to minimize your flaws (assuming you had any flaws, of course), which suggests that your opposition to plastic surgery does not truly rest on a philosophy that we must "relish in what life has brought our way."

    Dentistry: Melissa already mentioned braces. MistaBen says the analogy is flawed because there are medical reasons for fixing your teeth. But all you have to do to avoid MistaBen's objection is to rephrase Melissa's point - are you morally opposed to "cosmetic" dentistry? We don’t limit our dentistry to medically necessary procedures. We want straight and perfect teeth for the sake of having straight and perfect teeth. We are quick to condemn Ashlee Simpson for getting a nose job, but would we be as quick to condemn Jewel for straightening her teeth? (Okay, I would because I find Jewel's crooked teeth amazingly sexy, but I suspect I would be the only one). And often dentistry involves real surgery - I had 4 teeth pulled to "make room for" my straightened teeth.

    So, for those like Kage and Proud Daughter of Eve, are you opposed to cosmetic dentistry? And if not, how would you justify fixing flawed teeth (for purely cosmetic reasons), but not fixing a flawed nose (for similar reasons) based on the "our bodies are a map of our life" and we should "relish in what life has brought our way" philosophy? Aren't we teaching our children a "preoccupation with self and a fixation on the physical" (to use Elder Holland's words) when as pre-teens we rush them to the dentist to make sure their teeth are nice and straight without any true medical reason for doing so?
    posted by Blogger Todd L. at 7/11/2006 02:09:00 PM  

  • I'm not sure if this falls into your category, Kage, but I recently had Lasik surgery and it was the BEST $3000 I ever spent on myself! I'd do it again, and would encourage anyone thinking about it to go for it. Sure, I could have lived just fine with the glasses for the rest of my life (and, realistically, may still end up with glasses as my eyes age), but I am delighted with being able to see clearly first thing in the morning, not having to squint at the swimming pool, and being able to see what I'm doing when I put on makeup (more vanity?).

    I'm not interested in plastic surgery, despite birthing and nursing six children; however, my sister, who also has six kids, just had implants (she's 34) and she said it has done wonders for her self-esteem and for her intimate life (because SHE is more happy/comfortable with herself; her husband liked her fine before). So I'm happy for her. And yes, I'd love to be firmer, but I'm also not willing to go for surgery to achieve it. Thank heaven for underwire!

    Great topic; thanks for bringing it up.
    posted by Anonymous Idahospud at 7/11/2006 02:24:00 PM  

  • Before I got back on to read the new comments, I was thinking that Plastic Surgery in general is such a broad topic, it is hard to comment on.

    I, like Miggy have known too many women with the same story as her mother's and I think with breast implants especially, we have similarly formed views....and that is just life experience.

    Beth, nice nose...I didn't know that.

    "Teaching our children to not get caught up in this look obsessed world of ours is not an easy task but we have to realize that we are all caught up in it on some level. " Of course we are, I just think that our kids learn by watching, and by getting plastic surgery (what I consider an extreme), that would be a big lesson on BEING looks-obsessed..that is avoidable.

    Todd, I don't look down on people who have PS...I just don't understand it, and I don't think I will ever do it for myself. I don't think someone is morally unethical for getting it, that's for sure. I just say to myself: Why?

    I was thinking about the makeup and dental question and I think for me the main difference is that you are not cutting open your flesh and in some cases adding foreign objects to it.

    And though I think I understand your broadway example...I would resent making it on broadway because of my looks....it better be about the talent. Now if I could have plastic surgery to fix my dancing....I might consider it ; )

    Yes I do wear concealer, and having bad skin problems when I was pregnant was devastating to me, but when I was given the choice to stop breastfeeding my baby (so that I could take the pills to fix my skin) or continue breastfeeding with bad skin, I chose the latter. It was more important to me to pass up jobs and have bad skin then to stop caring for my baby. And I embraced it (sometimes) and I was still happy.

    As a recipient of cosmetic dental procedures, I guess I can't be opposed to it. I am open to other plastics, just not surgery. If I hadn't had my crowns, I would have had bad teeth, which would affect my career. Of course one can make the argument that having a flat chest (or any other "flaw") would have the same affect. I choose to wear the makeup and the padded bra and fix my teeth, and yes I would buy that concealer that you are talking about (good job for even knowing what concealer is)...but the risks involved for SURGERY do not seem worth it, and surgery would greatly alter my appearance, where the makeup etc. just sort of enhance my apperance. I am ok with enhancing, not altering.

    The orthodontics phenomenon is probably the precursor to other surgeries. I don’t recall my parents sitting me down and giving me the choice to have orthodontics, it was just what you did. And my fear is that PS will follow the same path. Now that I am an adult, I have chosen on my own to have the cosmetic dentistry and orthodontics, and I don’t feel as if it has altered my look, just enhanced it…this is how I justify it, that and I am not being anesthetized and cut open.

    Idahospud, your sister sounds like my friends when they talk about boob jobs, like they are doing it for themselves. Maybe I just don’t care that I said cest la vie to my boobs, and they do. I have just heard them voice their plans to get it done, and I want to understand why.
    posted by Blogger Kage at 7/11/2006 03:13:00 PM  

  • Maybe altering your image is only acceptable if your career depends on it.
    posted by Anonymous Anonymous at 7/11/2006 03:25:00 PM  

  • Kage...I don't know for sure, but don't you take your girls on most of your jobs with you?? Do they not see you up there flirting and dancing for cameras, which is ENTIRELY based on looks???? Just a thought, not judging at all, but the "example to our girls" just made me think of that. I very much agree with the need to consider our children here......I have 4 girls, but I think our influence as mothers runs much deeper than just a boob job. I have a few friends and cousin that have had PS and their kids have NO CLUE. It really doesn't have to effect the kids at all if it's done within "normal" limits. Anyways......surgery is definitely scary, that's why I'll probably just stick with my A's now :)
    posted by Anonymous Anonymous at 7/11/2006 03:39:00 PM  

  • anon, i am reading your tone as being sarcastic? am I right on that?

    do you think there is a difference between altering and enhancing?
    do you think it is ok to be the best you can be without surgery?

    and I think image is very different from appearance. I could alter my image by wearing a costume...
    posted by Blogger Kage at 7/11/2006 03:42:00 PM  

  • anon, my daughter has sat in on two auditions, maybe one. and the last one I had to sit on a bed and apply lotion to my skin and then tuck myself into bed. They do not see my audition. And while getting a job is based on looks, there is skill and technique that goes into it that is more than "flirting and dancing."

    I do worry that they have an unhealthy view of the human race as they are usually meeting a very good-looking segment of the population when they come to auditions with me.

    I know nothing of the recovery involved with PS. Wouldn't that affect your family at least temporarily. I think my four year old would notice if I got implants...for sure she would.
    posted by Blogger Kage at 7/11/2006 03:51:00 PM  

  • my anon rebuttals are done in order of their appearance..in case there is confusion.
    posted by Blogger Kage at 7/11/2006 03:51:00 PM  

  • I'm with the 'never say never' camp. I never thought I would even consider it, but after nursing babies, my boobs could use a little work.

    It is very expensive and risky, however, and it's very very very low on the list. But the thought has crossed my mind more than once, which I never thought would happen.

    I think it's because my body as it is now (a cup) is different from my body as it was "given" to me,(c cup) and I really want my "real" figure back. I doubt I'll ever do it, but never say never.

    Also, there are a lot more women out there who have had work done than you know, they're very quiet about it, they're not overly busty, and they're very modest. You'd be surprised at who in your ward has gone under the knife.

    Enhancing vs. altering? Really? We're going to argue semantics?

    To use a different analogy - is changing your hair color 'enhancing' the real you or 'altering' it? Does it depend on if you just highlight it a little or do a drastic color change (blonde to black for It's all semantics. True, hair color isn't surgery, but it certainly alters your look.
    posted by Anonymous never say never at 7/11/2006 04:55:00 PM  

  • I'm one of the Tales girls that Kage wanted to respond to this post. She and I have talked about this issue before. I know she loves me because she told me she didn't condone my desire to have a boob job and tummy tuck (the sweet girl says I don't need it) but that she'd call and send me flowers when it was over :)

    I miss my breasts pre-kids. They were great and I liked 'em. So once I am done reproducing, I just may look into giving them back to myself. It has nothing to do with society, my husband or to fill a void in my life. I don't suffer from extreme vanity (just the regular kind that ALL women have) - I simply think I look better with lovely C's on my frame. That's it. I had them once, I want them back.

    And because I am a small woman that had 2 large babies, my stomach has never fully recovered. Sure, I've lost the baby weight and then some but it doesn't matter because the skin that was stretched from pregnancy is still there. SO...I'll probably get that removed. Again, not for society, husband or extreme vanity - just restoring my stomach to what it was before children.

    I know there are a million arguments out there for and against PS, but I've already made up my mind :) The end.
    posted by Blogger chloe at 7/11/2006 05:27:00 PM  

  • Kage,

    You seem to have abandoned your “relish your flaws” philosophy for an “enhance but don’t alter” your body philosophy. Enhance vs. alter is a fun word game, but I’m not sure there’s any meaningful distinction. Dental work often requires an expensive and invasive procedure to file down old teeth and put a foreign material over them to make those old teeth look different than they did before. If that is not altering your appearance, then I don’t know what is. And don’t many people call a boob job “breast enhancement”? After all, women are born with boobs, some just choose to have them enhanced.

    I also don’t think the mere fact that something is “surgery” makes much of a difference. Your dental work might not have required surgery, but mine did. Yet, no one is really opposed to such surgical procedures to enhance the look of one’s smile.

    I think you hit on a distinction, however, when you note that “the risks involved for surgery do not seem worth it.” One primary difference between dental work and a breast augmentation is the real risk involved in the latter. And I agree that the risk involved in plastic surgery (particularly in a breast augmentation) is a real consideration, perhaps an overwhelming one.

    But note how far that reasoning takes you from the altruistic reasons against plastic surgery you gave in your original post (and that some commenters have run with). Rather than relishing the roadmap to life that is your face and body, it turns out that you are really just a little more risk-adverse than those who choose to get plastic surgery. Nothing wrong with that, of course, but nothing necessarily altruistic either.
    posted by Blogger Todd L. at 7/11/2006 05:34:00 PM  

  • sorry, my comment got a little typoish at the end there. But if you're really going to be splitting hairs about enhancing vs. altering...puh-leaze.

    I understand being against plastic surgery because of the health risks. And I agree that it's risky and should not be done to anyone under the age of 21 (and preferably older).

    But I think it's a little much to say you're against it for moral reasons when you are all for cosmetic dentistry, hair coloring, hair extensions, airbrushing, tanning, bronzing, fake nails, fake eyelashes, colored contacts, etc, all under the name of "it's enhancing, not altering."

    i am so with you on getting back what was originally mine. I looked lovely with C's too. Maybe we should make appointments together (hee hee).
    posted by Anonymous never say never at 7/11/2006 05:44:00 PM  

  • On the E! Entertainment Channel tonight there is a 2 hr. special called "Plastic Surgery Nightmares"... just thought that was funny after reading this post today.
    posted by Blogger Beth at 7/11/2006 06:08:00 PM  

  • I've been pondering this all day, really working out my feelings on the subject. Here are my thoughts:

    I have no moral objection to plastic surgery. But, I don't think I'll ever get it. Not for some idealistic reason, though sometimes I think I tell myself that to make me feel better about myself. Mostly, it's for two simple reasons:

    1. Because I'm a wimp. I doubt, when it came down to it, I'd ever actually elect to cause myself pain - heck, I've been avoiding having my wisdom teeth out for years for the same reason! So actually choosing to cut or suck or trim something that didn't HAVE to be (ie a mole for skin cancer safety reasons - and even that I'm stupidly reluctant about) is a pretty long shot for me.

    2. I'd have a hard time justifying the cost. I have a hard time spending more than $20 on something for myself - clothing, footwear, food, electronics, anything... if only my husband felt the same way! So unless I have some major self-esteem or entitlement turnaround in my 30s, or unless tummy tucks suddenly become free, I think it's unlikely.

    Do I have parts about me I'd change? Sure. Will I do it? Probably not.
    posted by Blogger marian at 7/11/2006 07:13:00 PM  

  • I don't think my very observant 7 year old would really notice if I got a boob job.....that's just how great my padded bra is :) I did just "take care" of my cousin that got her C's back and no, I don't think the recovery is any different or has more of an effect on your family than does a bad stomach flu for a few days. I do think the best option is the Bev Hills Resort for the "vacation recovery" though, just a dream for me :)
    posted by Anonymous Anonymous at 7/11/2006 07:13:00 PM  

  • Put me safely in the never crowd. And that goes for cosmetic dentristy too. I had JACKED teeth, including a massive space in the middle. I had to have multiple surgeries and braces (for four long years). I had teeth coming into the roof of my mouth and teeth sticking into my cheek. After the braces came off however, the space in the middle came back. "Mind the gap" comments aside, annoying pushing from my dentist to get it closed aside...I will never remove the gap through cosmetic dentristry. I fixed the serious problems with my teeth. God gave me the gap and, as much as I hated it as a kid, I have come to love it. Ditto for my AA chest, poochy tummy, and crooked back. Judging from my relatives and ma, I'm also going to have a droopy face when I hit about 50. And it will stay too.

    Part of the challange of life is dealing with our body, our self-image, self-control, and self-esteem. Surgery is not an answer to you hating your nose or post-child boobs anymore than abortion is to that inconvenient pregancy.

    Sound harsh? It is. PS to 'enhance' is not right and is born out of vanity, something women are specifically warned about (especially in relation to the last days). Just because we all have some measure of vanity does not mean its ok to indulge it.
    posted by Anonymous Anonymous at 7/11/2006 07:27:00 PM  

  • I would SO much rather spend the money you spend on a nose or bigger boobs on a cruise to Alaska, a trip to Africa, or donate it to medical research. Life is WAY WAY WAY too short to be spending money on boobs, or spending any time in a hospital recovering from an elective surgery, no matter how small, just because you want something the way it was before you had kids, or because you want something that somebody else has. Guess what, folks? We live, we age, we experience things, it changes us, and that's the way life is!

    Seriously, with the possible exception of Lasik (which for me would be practical--I am blinder than a bat and hate squinting for Jacob every day at the pool), I can think of about a thousand other things I'd rather spend my money on that could enrich my life more than a C cup. And even with the Lasik thing--I haven't done it yet, and I still think I'd rather stick with the glasses and go to Europe. Or Egypt. Haven't been there yet. I've heard the Nile is lovely this time of year.
    posted by Blogger Heather O. at 7/11/2006 07:36:00 PM  

  • Bless my OB who, after the birth of my 2nd, told me that the kid had stretched my stomach to the point where no amount of exercise would bring it back. At least let me THINK I can fix it will ya?!
    That being said, I've considered a tummy tuck, for about 2 minutes. Recovery is painful, I've seen it with my friends. It costs far more than I could ever justify. There are NO guarantees as to the outcome of your procedure. It's not something most people notice because I am careful to choose clothes that are flattering to my apple shape, so why bother?
    I too have a snaggle tooth that I have learned to love over the years, though it was really rough as a kid/teen. And I simply love my cosmetics, not for their corrective qualities, but for the sheer enjoyment of expressing myself through color.
    So really, I guess it all comes down to "to each his own". And to think that someone is silly or vain simply because they think differently from you, well, that's just mean. Not to mention that you could be totally off the mark.
    posted by Blogger Mo Mommy at 7/11/2006 08:03:00 PM  

  • This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
    posted by Blogger trimama at 7/11/2006 08:30:00 PM  

  • Well, I don't think anyone is silly or vain because they think differently than me, I think they are vain for getting a boob job. Sorry, no matter how you slice it, a 'breast enhancement' is vain.

    You know, if Pres. Hinkley sees fit to warn us girls against marring our body with little things like piercings and tattoos, don't you think that logic applies to messing with our bodies in even bigger ways?

    Our body is a temple, and to do the things we do to it in the name of so called beauty is a tragedy. I think the one thing that Heavenly Father mourns the most about his daughters is that they can't get over their appearance. Seriously, pray that you can see yourself...and your sisters, through his eyes. It will change your prespective, I promise.

    As for 'supporting our sisters in their decisions'...well, as someone who has 6 literal sisters, let me tell you what a bad idea it is to support BAD decisions. You can love your sisters through their bad decisions, but the best thing you can do for someone you love is tell them when you think they are making a bad decision. I'm not going to sit on a high horse a judge everyone who has plastic surgery, but, I'm not going to say that because the person is great/righteous etc that having it was a good decision.

    Seriously, many of you women have bought into Satan's lies about women so hook line, and sinker. Wear those post-kiddie boobs with honor. Hold your nose high, it says something about who you are! It is so incredibly UNIMPORTANT what our outward appearnce is. Get rid of what ever it is in your life thats making you think you need to look a certain way. Throw away the makeup and magazines, dont go to the mall, turn off the tv. Its all lies.
    posted by Anonymous Anonymous at 7/11/2006 08:53:00 PM  

  • PS is such a personal decision and I think that the most important thing for us to do as women is to respect the choices of our sisters. I think too often we are quick to judge or criticize fellow women for their choices regarding physical appearance. The bottom line for me is that we all strive to be beautiful in our own way (exercise, make-up, braces, botox, push-up bras, spanx, silicone, blue eye-shadow) and we all need to enjoy the journey and celebrate our sisters along the way.
    posted by Blogger trimama at 7/11/2006 10:02:00 PM  

  • A few years ago I would have said I'd never even think about it. What upsets me now is that more and more "normal" women do it, which means more normal women are supposed to consider it.
    It used to be that if you were an A cup, you had company.
    Now, if you don't upgrade than you are the only one who doesn't.
    We are letting PS be mainstreamed and that is NOT a good thing. Surgery is expensive. It is dangerous.
    Each altered woman on TV with her skinny hips and big boobs (that don't happen naturally very often) is hurting all of us by making us feel like we need to look like that.....even just for "ourselves."

    As for Botox and nose jobs. Most people I see who think it has improved them, it hasn't. There are some really, really scary mouths and faces on TV and these people think they have made an improvement. That is what is sad.
    posted by Anonymous JKS at 7/11/2006 10:40:00 PM  

  • I have to say this... my father always told me that "you can never make a second first impression." In no way was he relating this to getting a boob job, however in this day and age you ARE judged by your apparence. Your apperence changes everything ie.. jobs, relationships, and although I would love to always say "It is only on the inside that counts" we all know in this day and age that doesnt always hold true.

    I would always leave the decision for PS to the individual. Shame on anyone who feels they can condemn for this. Our church has never come out with an official statement on breast inhancements, and really many women do it for their personal and intimate relationships with their husbands. Not because they are trying to keep up with Hollywood. Hollywood may set a standard but many women in the church are getting PS done,I am yet to hear a sister say that she did it to "keep up with Pamila."
    posted by Anonymous Anonymous at 7/12/2006 12:28:00 AM  

  • todd l. this line of debate does not surprise me coming from you, kinda makes me wish you lived downstairs again...

    Anyway...i don't think that I am altruistic about anything. I think if I were extremely altruistic in my originally stated ideaology (sp?) then I would advocate us all walking around naked all the time, like Adam and Eve. And I certainly don't advocate that. I just think that we should try to accept what God has given us and make the best of it without altering our appearance through extreme measures.

    Your wifey and I discussed this yesterday and she makes a point that I hadn't considered: plastic surgery as a way of restoring your body. I wasn't thinking about the big buxxom beautifully busty women who had kids and now have long, pulled taffy looking breasts that are anything but perky, and how that might affect their esteem and intimate lives. I was never that big to begin with, so I will not have that problem, but putting myself in those shoes, I can see why one might be compelled to do it, because that can ONLY be fixed through surgery.

    Now the pizza dough stomach, I think if we do a bajillion crunches, we might be able to fix that without the tummy tuck.

    I do like to think of the "my body is a temple" rule when I am making decisions about my body, and so if I were to ever consider plastic surgery, this is what I would ponder on, not "what will this do for my career or image"

    Anyway...got a busy day...but if you would like to see my real teeth...click here.
    posted by Blogger Kage at 7/12/2006 05:29:00 AM  

  • Love that pic Kage!

    One question to all who say they would never do it. If someone came to you and said you could do any ps you want by the best suregeon that ever existed and it is free of charge. Would you turn it down???

    Chew on that one.
    posted by Blogger Zinone at 7/12/2006 06:27:00 AM  

  • Kage,

    I think many people in the comments are talking about "restoring your body". Maybe you just missed it?
    posted by Anonymous Anonymous at 7/12/2006 07:21:00 AM  

  • A year ago my very healthy very beautiful close friend had her first child. Because she is so tiny and her son is so not 11 hours into the delivery the doctor’s decided to deliver her son via c-section. Today my friend still complains about the pouch in her tummy that will never go away because the muscles have been destroyed. She dresses around her tummy “issue” and constantly chats about how pleased she is that flounce tops are in this season. I hate to see her so bothered by this little issue, or what I consider a little issue. If she were to consider surgery to take care of what bothers her on a daily basis I would support it. Of course there are bigger and more important issues out in the world, but that is not what we are discussing. PS is a personal decision and one I might consider if I am ever as bothered by something on my body as much as she is bothered by something on hers.

    I like what you say; “to me our bodies are a map of our life. It is a literal imprint of where we came from, the choices we made, the ones we didn't choose, and who we are. From the inside to the outside to the scars to the laugh lines, we should relish in what life has brought our way.” This includes our choices regarding PS.
    posted by Blogger Alice at 7/12/2006 08:37:00 AM  

  • Kage, this is what I was saying in my earlier comment - PS to restore the body to what it was originally...
    posted by Blogger chloe at 7/12/2006 08:42:00 AM  

  • Does anyone know if Preparation H really does work for wrinkles? I think we should try to look and be our best and let the Spirit guide us in that, but in the meantime I'd love to know a cheap, effective way to get rid of the sadness and age around my eyes.
    posted by Blogger Squiddy at 7/12/2006 09:13:00 AM  

  • Zinone - even with the best plastic surgeon EVER there are still major risks! I would definitely consider it, but I would still be way scared of the risk factor. There is NO GUARANTEE!
    posted by Anonymous Anonymous at 7/12/2006 09:25:00 AM  

  • This is off the topic but....to anonymous who used the term "flirting and dancing for the camera".... I am not a fan. Unless I and everyone else read that wrong, you have a mentality that I wish we church members did not have. There is a sigma with church members (not the church) about anyone in the arts world, industry, performing, whatever. I really wish our church members would open their eyes and be a bit more open minded about this field without such negative judgement.
    posted by Anonymous Anonymous at 7/12/2006 10:19:00 AM  

  • "I just think that we should try to accept what God has given us and make the best of it without altering our appearance through extreme measures." Kage, it's an easy thing for you to say when you are born with such beauty, talent and height. It can't be too hard to feel this way when you have a modeling and casting agent and a busy career based on the amazing self you were born with.

    Would I do the PS thing? Who knows. I really like the comment by JKS. Every conference I just wait to hear someone mention it. I also had very strong opinions against PS (especially the boob job thing) but am seeing it happen more and more and more. Most of the women I know are RS Presidents or the Molly Mormons of my HS who I would NEVER have suspected to do such things. I know girls who get them as a graduation present. I have no idea where to find stats on it, but I've heard rumors that the percentage of boob jobs is higher in UT than any other state. I worked for a maxillofacial surgeon for years and many of our Dr. buddies were leaving the business for plastics IN UTAH because the demand couldn't be met by current Dr's and there was a lot of money (and boobs) to be made. I don't know that I would seriously consider doing it, but for some weak reason seeing everyone else doing it makes me not so opposed.

    As for the "surgical" argument, I agree that it's a bit of an extreme but what would you do if new boobs came in pill form and there were no side effects?

    If there was some type of surgery that made me about 6 inches taller, painful and risky as it might be, I think I would do it. I could even justify it by saying I was surgically enhancing my height in order to avoid the risk involved in constantly standing atop objects. But secretly I would feel sexier if I had longer legs. So because this happens to be my #1 gripe about my body, am I vain for wearing high heels to make me feel sexier and more confident?

    I know that when we die we will be resurrected to our "perfect form" and I've often wondered what that means. What is God's idea of MY perfect form? The temple leads me to believe it's youthful beauty, so I try to image myself in that light once I'm resurrected. Even if I had my boobs done I wouldn't be able to take them with me. I guess at that point it won't matter anyway.
    posted by Blogger Krista at 7/12/2006 01:04:00 PM  

  • krista, for some reason your post gave me this visual of resurrection day, and a mound of saline or silicon blobs next to the mound of prostetic limbs just lying there...thanks for your comments
    posted by Blogger Kage at 7/12/2006 02:02:00 PM  

  • "Now the pizza dough stomach, I think if we do a bajillion crunches, we might be able to fix that without the tummy tuck."

    I'm waaaay to apathetic to step into the PS debate, but wanted to steer anyone with a mommy pouch to an amazing book. It's called Lose Your Mummy Tummy. It worked wonders for me and seven months post baby, the tummy is gone. A strong stomach is not for vanity - your entire core depends on your abs!!!

    Now, if crunches would only get rid of the stretch marks . . .
    posted by Anonymous Anonymous at 7/12/2006 03:31:00 PM  

  • Kage,

    I have never posted a comment before on a blog site, but I consider myself somewhat of a plastic surgery expert. Some people come from a long family line of musicians or artists, I come from a long line of plastic surgery recipients! Let’s see, as a family (including, mom, grandma, aunts and cousins) I think were at 3 facelifts, 3 lipo’s, 2 tummy tucks, a botched lip job, probably 20 rounds of botox, and 12 boob jobs…. mine being the most recent!

    The first 11 boob jobs in my family were to make a pair of small boobs large or huge (depending on which member we are talking about). I don’t think any of the recipients gave surgery much thought. As soon as they could afford it, they did it, no question. Then there is me—until recently, the plastic surgery hold out. I was blessed with a B cup. My mom and grandma would marvel at my natural breasts and I would proudly proclaim that I would not be continuing the plastic surgery tradition!

    I had my first child and after nursing, my B had quietly shrunk to an A. No big deal! That’s what padded bra’s are for! Baby number two came along and nursed for 18 glorious months! Then, she stopped and HOLY CRAP! My chest was a train wreck. If it were appropriate to post the before and after pictures, I would do so and would not have to type another word! Here’s the breakdown. One of my boobs was an AA the other -- who the hell knows, but something less than AA -- Let’s say concave. So I got a full coverage padded bra that collapsed whenever someone hugged me and a padded swimsuit that collapsed upon getting wet. My stomach managed to flatten out after babies and it still stuck out way farther than my chest. The gym was the worst. I was lopsided and flat but I refused to wear a padded bra to the gym. I’m pretty sure some people at the gym thought I was brave for not getting reconstruction after what must have been at least a single mastectomy.

    For the first time in my life I considered getting a boob job. Did I need a boob job to make me happy? Nope. Would it be nice to go to the gym and not look like a lopsided 14 year old boy. Yep! So, I researched for a year. I talked to my O.B., my oncologist and even a member of the Stake Presidency. I saw and felt more boobs than Larry Flynt and Hugh Hefner combined- o.k., maybe not, but almost. When I decided to do it, my mom and grandma breathed a sigh of relief as if I’d gone inactive and was now returning to the church! I chose a surgeon in my mother’s ward who had done some of the more conservative work on my family (no porn star Dr. Rey boobs thank you very much), and asked him for a “sacrament meeting appropriate boob job”. I am now a small C and would do it again in a heartbeat.

    I was very nervous, don’t get me wrong, the risks are there. I chose an excellent surgeon and paid the big bucks that came with him, but it was worth knowing 99.99% that I wasn’t going to die on the table. Will I have more plastic surgery? Not in the near future, but I’m not opposed to it down the road. You may never want or need to enhance your body/face with surgery. That’s great, but leave the door open, you just may change your mind.

    OK, I know this post is long, but I’ve had some funny exchanges relating to my breasts that I thought I’d share.

    3 years ago, on a boat at a family reunion (note the fact that I was still nursing my daughter at the time, so nowhere near my smallest)

    Chase (14 year old cousin)-“What’s up with your boobs?”
    Me- “Excuse me?”
    C- “They are like, really small. What happened?”
    M-“When you have babies and nurse, your boobs get smaller.”
    C-“How come no one else’s did?”
    M-“ You’re serious?”
    C-“Yeah, I don’t get it?
    M-“Chase, everyone in our family has had a boob job.”
    C-“Oh.” Pause “You’re going to get one, right?”
    M- “I don’t think so.”
    C- “Yeah, you really should.”

    At my sister in laws house, hugging hello (she does not have a boob job).

    Kayli- “Wait, what just happened? It felt like your bra just caved in.”
    Me-“Yeah, it did, there’s nothing in there.”
    K-“Nuh-uh. Show me.”
    M-“O.K.” (shirt comes off)
    K- Gasp! Laughter. “You have to fix those. Please call a Dr. NOW!”

    Two hours after arriving home the phone rings

    K- “Please tell me you have an appointment.”

    At my oncologists office (I am in remission with Non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma) for a yearly check-up.

    Me- “Would you be in any way opposed to my getting breast implants?”
    Dr. P-“No, but you don’t need them, I’ve seen your breasts. Nothing wrong with small breasts.”
    M- “You haven’t seen them this year.”
    Dr. P-“Lift your shirt”

    I lift my shirt. Dr. P says nothing. He immediately takes a card out of his shirt pocket and writes down the names of three plastic surgeons.
    posted by Anonymous marianne at 7/12/2006 05:18:00 PM  

  • Oh Marianne, I LOVE your comments. I'm so glad that you're happy with your new breasts. Please come by again and comment - you're a riot!
    posted by Blogger chloe at 7/12/2006 05:34:00 PM  

  • Thanks Chloe! I feel so welcome! I forgot to comment on Carrie's post re her nose. You have a fabulous nose and a beautiful face. You may get a nose job and love it, but what if you become a Jennifer Gray? Now she just looks like everyone else. Turns out her unusual nose made her face.
    posted by Anonymous marianne at 7/12/2006 05:50:00 PM  

  • I'd personally be so sad if Carrie ever altered her nose - it's a part of her beautiful face and what makes her "her".

    And I totally agree with you about Jennifer Grey - could you even pick her out of a crowd now? NO!
    posted by Blogger chloe at 7/12/2006 06:25:00 PM  

  • Um, I'm with Krista on the height enhancement. I would JUMP on the chance to add a few inches to my legs. And if I did get that chance, I could jump so much higher!
    posted by Blogger Melissa at 7/12/2006 08:30:00 PM  

  • Maybe I'm in the minority but I LOVE being short. I'm 5'3 (sometimes I claim to be 5'4 but I really AM 5'3). I can wear high heels. I can use my height as an advantage (it sometimes takes people by surprise when sass and confidence come spilling out of a short woman). But most of all, I like that I'm quite a bit smaller than my husband (he's 6'). I can be diminuative when I feel like it and a little spitfire the rest of the time!

    Go petites! Be short and PROUD!
    posted by Blogger chloe at 7/12/2006 11:21:00 PM  

  • marianne...very funny stories, and a tiny bit disturbing at the same time that people were so ok with you getting a boob job and ok with telling you so. you know carrie? cool...come see us again some time.
    posted by Blogger Kage at 7/13/2006 03:33:00 AM  

  • I'm not sure why I feel compelled to leave my two cents about this whole plastic surgury thing. I am all for it!

    I worked extremely hard and lost 75 pounds and I was extremely proud of myself. The only problem is your skin loses it's elasticity and after having a child and losing 75 pounds it just hangs there and I don't get to enjoy all the hard work I just put into my body by losing the weight. It drove me crazy to wear clothes that fit me because when I would sit down I would have to tuck my roll of skin into my pants to feel comfortable. You loose your sence of being a beautiful female when you can pull the skin away from your tummy a good 2 or 3 inches. Not to mention it's very frustrating to feel those hard abs underneath all that skin.

    For this reason I will get a tummy tuck :) For me and only me.
    posted by Anonymous Anonymous at 7/13/2006 11:03:00 AM  

  • Chloe - I would love to be 5'3 or 5'4. I do like being short most of the time. I like wearing high heels too. It's just when I am cruising around in my ballet flats at Target and I can't see over the car seat in my cart that I think, hey, an extra few inches could do me good. Ah well, maybe in the next life.
    posted by Blogger Melissa at 7/13/2006 12:10:00 PM  

  • -I sometimes think that perhaps the resurrection will be like the movie Shrek. We will all be blessed with our perfected bodies, but what if this IS my perfect body, like princess fiona becoming an ogre? Let's all ignore the fact that I just equated the resurrection to a movie and think on that for a while.
    -BTW anon 8:53, I don't use makeup because of "the lie", I do it for the reason an artist paints, attempting to express what's inside me.
    -We are guided on the subject of decorating our bodies, not commanded. If the prophet trusts us to leave that between us and the Lord, I think we should too.
    -I am no longer surprised at the number of church women who think PS is a vain and prideful thing yet spend hours in the gym and counting calories in an attempt to lose as much weight as possible and drop a few more dress sizes. It has nothing to do with health and is the exact same thing in a different disguise.
    posted by Blogger Mo Mommy at 7/13/2006 09:08:00 PM  

  • I've just read all the comments about PS as a late comer. Very interesting all the experiences and attitudes. Actually, I had breast implants after my fourth child. My husband told me he would pay for them, because he said I looked like a boy. Very flattering, huh? At the time I wasn't sure whether he was true to our marriage or not.

    So to make a long story short, I went under the knife. It didn't save our marriage at all. He continued to cheat. I have worried about the decision I made. Every OB/GYN or Mammogram specialist has reassured me that less than 1% of the silicone breast implants have caused problems and there has been more made out of the case than necessary. Attorneys have loved it. I've been assured that I shouldn't worry. In fact, the last time I had a mammogram, the girl told me in the 10 years she's worked there she's never seen a leak - (and think about all the squeezes she's done.)

    Oh well, I probably would never have done it again. But I will tell you of all the dreams I had before then that I was this attractive woman with nice breasts instead of the A size on one side and an A+ on the other (especially after nursing 4 babies.) At least now they look the same at a size C. And my present husband is thrilled (thank you X!)

    By the way, my daughters know what I did, and they don't have the desire to change their looks. Thank Heavens!

    50++ woman
    posted by Anonymous Anonymous at 7/19/2006 09:51:00 PM  

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